Dmitry Volegov Certifies on the Captains of Crush No. 4 Gripper

[C8Myotome]

52 minutes ago, Cannon said:

This was my main objection to Dmitry's #3.5 cert, which has nothing to do with Dmitry himself. I really think the gripper should come from IronMind so they can select all certification grippers the same way. (Never mind it gives them a chance to place identifying markings on the package to ensure the same gripper was used, if they wanted that kind of added security. I've always thought it would be cool if Dr. Strossen signed the back with a Sharpie.)

If I was tasked with sending one from here, I would have to do something like prepare the box and then tell my family, "Go find one and put it in there." If I can see the gripper then I know what I'm sending. Meaning narrow, wide, uneven handles, sharpness of knurling, etc. Tons of factors. Even where it's pulled from in inventory I know when that arrived and if the ratings trend higher or lower versus other inventory. When I'm pre-rating grippers, I find a whole diversity of ratings by measuring spreads in the package and pick out narrow and wide options. But I would definitely know what I was sending.

And it just happened again with another Russian certing the 3 with a non-ironmind package, with no credit card pause as required by the rules as well..but I don't like that either, that a 3rd party is able to hand select peoples cert grippers which removes whatever the previous selection process was before, and could be very unfairly biasing Russians to be getting the easiest of cert grippers. I guess we should expect to see a lot more Russian certs to come...

[Zeferin]

7 minutes ago, C8Myotome said:

И это только что произошло снова с другим русским, сертифицировавшим 3 с пакетом не Ironmind, без паузы по кредитной карте, как того требуют правила... но мне это тоже не нравится, что третья сторона может вручить избранным людям захваты сертификатов, что отменяет все, что было до этого в процессе отбора, и может быть очень несправедливо предвзятым по отношению к русским, чтобы они получили самые легкие захваты сертификатов. Я думаю, нам следует ожидать увидеть гораздо больше российских сертификатов...

and if a person from Italy sends me a parcel with COC and IM will consider this to be the law?? fun times are coming

[weightlifter]

On 7/13/2024 at 7:11 PM, DoctorOfCrush said:

One thing I find interesting is that with the popularity and accessibility of the GM150 in Russia, why hasn’t he done it? It seems like all the top Russian gripsters do it and are all over the leaderboard.

I can defintely claim, that GM and grippers have no direct corellation. Simply look at Derek's result in GM, for example. In Russian Community, some guys who can't even mms close 148 coc#3, push 100-105 kg result on GM. If someone will gather statistics, you would make sure that there is no corellation. 
I'm neither a lawyer of Dmitriy nor something else. I wondered by question Is GM and grippers have any corellation. The answer is NO.

[martincerven]

3 hours ago, weightlifter said:

I can defintely claim, that GM and grippers have no direct corellation. Simply look at Derek's result in GM, for example. In Russian Community, some guys who can't even mms close 148 coc#3, push 100-105 kg result on GM. If someone will gather statistics, you would make sure that there is no corellation. 
I'm neither a lawyer of Dmitriy nor something else. I wondered by question Is GM and grippers have any corellation. The answer is NO.

Saying hand dynamometer and grippers have 0 (what does direct even mean) correlation is imho dumb. If you took large sample of humans and tested them on dynamometer and grippers, I'd say there would be non zero positive correlation. Correlation just means linear relationship between two variables.

 

I gave my chinese dyno and grippers to lot of people to try, and there is big tendency that people that are stronger on dyno can close heavier grippers. Of course hand size, gripper width, and setting matters, but on average, on large sample size, these two measurements would not be independent.

 

If there is dude who can close #4 like it's nothing, but is super weak in  every other grip aspect  (maybe he can lift big boulders in Alps) that is kinda suspicious.

 

I actually wanted to do a random test in a city, give people dyno and grippers, something like youtube challenge, but actually write down data and do some plots and graphs, that would be really cool I think.

 

 

[weightlifter]

All I wanna say is that you cannot say exactly, that if someone push Gm at 150 kilos - always can close #4 or vice verca. If someone have said me before that athlete who pushes GM at 102 kg had ceritified on coc#3, I wouldn't believe that man. But it is true. This fact means that you can consider correlation between GM and gripper only in individual manner. If someone wanna argue, and still wanna get evidence from Dmitriy by demanding on result in GM, and claim that the result must be considered, I propose some athletes from GripBoard to show his own results in GM. I refuse to believe that man who push GM at 102 kg could close coc#3 by CCS.
 

Edited July 18 by weightlifter

[Fist of Fury]

3 hours ago, martincerven said:

Saying hand dynamometer and grippers have 0 (what does direct even mean) correlation is imho dumb. If you took large sample of humans and tested them on dynamometer and grippers, I'd say there would be non zero positive correlation. Correlation just means linear relationship between two variables.

 

I gave my chinese dyno and grippers to lot of people to try, and there is big tendency that people that are stronger on dyno can close heavier grippers. Of course hand size, gripper width, and setting matters, but on average, on large sample size, these two measurements would not be independent.

 

If there is dude who can close #4 like it's nothing, but is super weak in  every other grip aspect  (maybe he can lift big boulders in Alps) that is kinda suspicious.

 

I actually wanted to do a random test in a city, give people dyno and grippers, something like youtube challenge, but actually write down data and do some plots and graphs, that would be really cool I think.

 

 

It really doesn't correlate as much as people think. I can close around 170 RGC with my left and I can't even hit 100 kg on a dynamo.

There are people who can do absurd reults on dynamos without being able to close big grippers. Tobias Sporrong is a good example, he has one of the highest scores in the world with dynamos and he's not closing anything harder than a #3 as far as I'm aware.

Hafthor did like 125 kg on the baseline and I don't think he can close big grippers either.

The thing is that dynamometers are very straight forward, it doesn't require any technique. While grippers require a lot of training to be good at.

That's also the reason dynamometers are a much better way of testing pure grip strength than grippers are.

Grippers are better as a sport tho.

[David_wigren]

This is a different topic but I’m not sure I’d automatically trust a dyno result either. A digital device can malfunction and give an incorrect reading. I’m also not certain that they don’t vary more than grippers would.

IMO it’s better to just show up at someone else’s place and close their number 4 in front of them.

And speaking about the correlation between dynos and grippers. The dyno’s I’ve tried felt too small for my hand/palm, even on the widest setting. Didn’t feel like I could apply any sort of power. So I could see how one could perform well on grippers while being poor on the dyno’s and vice versa. 

[Fist of Fury]

35 minutes ago, David_wigren said:

This is a different topic but I’m not sure I’d automatically trust a dyno result either. A digital device can malfunction and give an incorrect reading. I’m also not certain that they don’t vary more than grippers would.

IMO it’s better to just show up at someone else’s place and close their number 4 in front of them.

And speaking about the correlation between dynos and grippers. The dyno’s I’ve tried felt too small for my hand/palm, even on the widest setting. Didn’t feel like I could apply any sort of power. So I could see how one could perform well on grippers while being poor on the dyno’s and vice versa. 

There will be variation if they are not calibrated.

Of course, you can fake everything. That's why we have competitions. The problem with certs is that it's really not a sport. Ironmind should go back to using referee's. That would make their certs a lot more legit. But it's not like Ironmind improve their rules, they have a history of making up new rules which is just getting worse and worse, as we already know. I'm surprised anyone really cares about their certs at all.

[dubyagrip]

1 hour ago, Fist of Fury said:

There will be variation if they are not calibrated.

Of course, you can fake everything. That's why we have competitions. The problem with certs is that it's really not a sport. Ironmind should go back to using referee's. That would make their certs a lot more legit. But it's not like Ironmind improve their rules, they have a history of making up new rules which is just getting worse and worse, as we already know. I'm surprised anyone really cares about their certs at all.

The prestige is certainly wearing off.

[MrSadFace]

Dmitry seems to be making an attempt  to prove himself for those that are skeptical, as far as measuring spring, and showing before/after measurements. Looks like a pretty easy close on a (194lb I think?) Standard Tungsten. I hope he continues to go more in depth with these types of videos. Curious what you guys think.

https://youtube.com/shorts/A0GPAPW1lvc?si=qWOCxbHqAnYq_R0H

Edited July 18 by MrSadFace

[The Under Table]

4 hours ago, MrSadFace said:

Dmitry seems to be making an attempt  to prove himself for those that are skeptical, as far as measuring spring, and showing before/after measurements. Looks like a pretty easy close on a (194lb I think?) Standard Tungsten. I hope he continues to go more in depth with these types of videos. Curious what you guys think.

https://youtube.com/shorts/A0GPAPW1lvc?si=qWOCxbHqAnYq_R0H

The Italian Stallion measured springs/widths/breadths/etc/etc for his GH9 certs. 

CREDIBLE WITNESS OR NOTHING

[MrSadFace]

27 minutes ago, The Under Table said:

The Italian Stallion measured springs/widths/breadths/etc/etc for his GH9 certs. 

CREDIBLE WITNESS OR NOTHING

That's fair, and I agree. I was only saying it appears like hes making an attempt. I realize this (or any solo video) could be shenanigans.  Just wanted to share it and hear other people's thoughts and opinions.

[Jared P]

About a 30mm wide set close with a Standard Tungsten, which is excellent, but a far cry from a 211 x 3 CCS, or a 227 CCS.

Would be good to see a CoC 4 CCS fresh out the package, measured before and after in the same manner.

Also, the tag on this one is confusing. I believe it reads 88? Those tags are from Vadim Murashkin, if I'm not mistaken, or perhaps Nikita, but are supposed to be in SGR/CXP, not RGC. 88 kg CXP = roughly 204 lbs RGC. Hard to imagine a Tungsten rating 204. But these ratings are hard to verify, and who knows how consistent they really are.

Glad Dmitry made the effort to measure everything though.

[Cannon]

15 minutes ago, Jared P said:

Those tags are from Vadim Murashkin, if I'm not mistaken, or perhaps Nikita, but are supposed to be in SGR/CXP, not RGC. 88 kg CXP = roughly 204 lbs RGC. Hard to imagine a Tungsten rating 204.

I don't like the idea of conversions. They should just say what they got (and maybe they did, I don't really understand their system and acronyms). The rating does not have to match CPW to be a perfectly good rating. If they are consistent with their measurements then it's just as good of a number. Having said that, they might have gotten 204 per their system, but that's not probable for a Tungsten the way CPW rates grippers. Most of them we have ever made were mounted so they go 190-195. There have been 2 at 200 and never one above that out of over two hundred rated. We would have to rate the gripper to know what it rates.  

[slazbob]

Isn’t 88kg 194 ish?

[Cannon]

2 minutes ago, slazbob said:

Isn’t 88kg 194 ish?

Yeah, 194 on the nuggets. But I guess for myself I was replying to the 204 number and admitting I don’t know how their system works if they’re doing some other conversion. 

If it’s just 88=194 then that’s totally reasonable for Tungsten.

[Jared P]

10 minutes ago, slazbob said:

Isn’t 88kg 194 ish?

In Russia, they typically don't use RGC - meaning, they don't place a strap over the handles and 'hang' weight from it. Vano Sukhashvili of Grippermania/GM150 does measure in RGC I believe, but the others in the Steel Grip of Russia community such as Vadim Murashkin et al, use the horizontal winding device you see in their videos, and they call this measurement SGR/CXP. They've calculated it to be roughly SGR kg / 0.95 = RGC kg.

The reason for using this conversion is especially applicable to the Heaviest closes list. Without it, the list wouldn't make any sense at all. But which Russian tags correlate to which rating system is something that is often lost in translation, and is unclear. I've personally asked Nikita in that past, and he has said that the ratings on his grippers, unless they are a CPW tag, are in SGR/CXP rather than RGC.

[slazbob]

28 minutes ago, Jared P said:

In Russia, they typically don't use RGC - meaning, they don't place a strap over the handles and 'hang' weight from it. Vano Sukhashvili of Grippermania/GM150 does measure in RGC I believe, but the others in the Steel Grip of Russia community such as Vadim Murashkin et al, use the horizontal winding device you see in their videos, and they call this measurement SGR/CXP. They've calculated it to be roughly SGR kg / 0.95 = RGC kg.

The reason for using this conversion is especially applicable to the Heaviest closes list. Without it, the list wouldn't make any sense at all. But which Russian tags correlate to which rating system is something that is often lost in translation, and is unclear. I've personally asked Nikita in that past, and he has said that the ratings on his grippers, unless they are a CPW tag, are in SGR/CXP rather than RGC.

You know your stuff!  I didn’t know of such things. I’m simple hah… it’s pounds or kilograms for me….and I prefer pounds.

[Jared P]

14 minutes ago, slazbob said:

You know your stuff!  I didn’t know of such things. I’m simple hah… it’s pounds or kilograms for me….and I prefer pounds.

Same here. I’d prefer if it were simpler.

That’s kind of the problem with ratings in general. It’s hard to even compare two ratings when they are performed by different people with different devices. They really just give a rough estimate of how one gripper of a certain level compares with another of the same level, easier or harder, such as a light 3 versus an average or heavy 3. 

I think the most important thing with ratings is that people use only one rating system in their personal collection for training, so that the comparisons are relevant and dialed in.

[weightlifter]

I have written before that you should divide by 0.445 coeff aprox. when transform SGR into RGC CPW. Beleive me, that RGC can be different also. For Cannon measurements coeff above fits the best. So, we got 197 RGC CPW for that Tungsten.

Edited July 19 by weightlifter

[Jared P]

26 minutes ago, weightlifter said:

I have written before that you should divide by 0.445 coeff aprox. when transform SGR into RGC CPW. Beleive me, that RGC can be different also. For Cannon measurements coeff above fits the best. So, we got 197 RGC CPW for that Tungsten.

 

[Jared P]

53 minutes ago, weightlifter said:

I have written before that you should divide by 0.445 coeff aprox. when transform SGR into RGC CPW. Beleive me, that RGC can be different also. For Cannon measurements coeff above fits the best. So, we got 197 RGC CPW for that Tungsten.

What is your source for the .445 coefficient? 

One reason I don’t like that conversion is because it produces gripper ratings, in certain instances, that basically shouldn’t exist. CoC 4s rated at 188 rgc rather than 195 rgc with the .95 conversion, such as Nikita’s CCS PR.

[weightlifter]

Point of applying forces for RGC is also 1/2 inch. And width of strap for SGR measurements is 1 inch. If you compare RGC measurements from different devices - you will be wondered but results will be vary. Measurements in any system make sence only if you rate grippers in one certain device. You cannot think that RGC rate on CPW device will match with RGC rate on someone else device. So, for CPW device translation coeff from CPW lbs to SGR kilos is closer to 0.445 (by empirical comparing). I watched a lot of videos with RGC/SGR measurements in Russian Community on YouTube. Rates inside RGC and even inside SGR but on different devices sometimes don't match.
Of course, if you will continue to think that RGC = SGR/0.95 is an accurate formula and that formula works regardless of who measured gripper rate, those "radflags" will always appear when someone will close gripper with SGR label and you will compare it with CPW rate by formula above

Edited July 19 by weightlifter

[weightlifter]

5 minutes ago, Jared P said:

CoC 4s rated at 188 rgc rather than 195 rgc with the .95 conversion, such as Nikita’s CCS PR.

Understand now? why using RGC = SGR/.95 is not a magic formula?

[weightlifter]

I created some code on Python that calculates theoretical RGC CPW rate. You can look at in my workout report. It shows interesting results when measuring grippers' dimensions (spring diameter, coil diameter etc). But I'm lack of extended knowledge about some steel properties and how that properties may affect calculations. You can help gather statistics if will measure grippers' dimensions and tell CPW rate. Perhaps, it will give additional tool for estimate gripper rate regardless of chosen rate system or device.
From my observations calculation error doesn't exceeds 1kilo (2.2lbs). But I have no enough measurements to claim that it will work always and anywhere, unfortunally.