A little emotional but sincere about Tiziano, Carl and trust and respect in our inner circle

[Allen Heineck]

5 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

You're quite right, they don't. 

However, that doesn't take away the fact that videos aren't absolute proof for anything. 

It can't be denied at all that a verifiable witness is the best form of proof, whether you like it or not. 

What verifies the witness?

[dubyagrip]

5 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

You're quite right, they don't. 

However, that doesn't take away the fact that videos aren't absolute proof for anything. 

It can't be denied at all that a verifiable witness is the best form of proof, whether you like it or not. 

The best form, FOR YOU.

[Londonjoseph]

4 minutes ago, dubyagrip said:

The best form, FOR YOU.

Yeah, it is the best form for me. 

I don't speak for anyone else, but I think there's a good consensus a verifiable witness is better than any video could be. 

I'd sooner trust cannon or Carl seeing and confirming a feat than any particular video. 

[dubyagrip]

1 minute ago, Londonjoseph said:

Yeah, it is the best form for me. 

I don't speak for anyone else, but I think there's a good consensus a verifiable witness is better than any video could be. 

I'd sooner trust cannon or Carl seeing and confirming a feat than any particular video. 

Video is good enough for Ironmind, Mashmonster, GHP, Rogue, etc.,  You don't get to insinuate things about people when the strength community at large accepts video.

[Allen Heineck]

2 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

Yeah, it is the best form for me. 

I don't speak for anyone else, but I think there's a good consensus a verifiable witness is better than any video could be. 

I'd sooner trust cannon or Carl seeing and confirming a feat than any particular video. 

Who/what is a verifiable witness?

[Londonjoseph]

8 minutes ago, Allen Heineck said:

What verifies the witness?

A trusted member of the community that is in high regards. I guess you could say someone could be in cahoots with someone else, but it's a case by case basis, not black and white type of thing 

[Allen Heineck]

1 minute ago, Londonjoseph said:

A trusted member of the community that is in high regards. I guess you could say someone could be in cahoots with someone else, but it's a case by case basis, not black and white type of thing 

Circular answer.

[Londonjoseph]

1 minute ago, dubyagrip said:

Video is good enough for Ironmind, Mashmonster, GHP, Rogue, etc.,  You don't get to insinuate things about people when the strength community at large accepts video.

Again, I didn't insinuate anything in this thread, in fact I said "idk if it's real or not". 

 

I've been rather impartial, I've just expressed my opinion that video proof isn't the end all be all 

[dubyagrip]

3 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

Again, I didn't insinuate anything in this thread, in fact I said "idk if it's real or not". 

 

I've been rather impartial, I've just expressed my opinion that video proof isn't the end all be all 

[DoctorOfCrush]

1 hour ago, Allen Heineck said:

Who/what is a verifiable witness?

If it is not your mortal enemy actively attempting to thwart your efforts, they can't be trusted as a judge. 

[HandsMcHanderson]

3 hours ago, Londonjoseph said:

A trusted member of the community that is in high regards. I guess you could say someone could be in cahoots with someone else, but it's a case by case basis, not black and white type of thing 

The issue becomes "how" and beyond how "why". Given that as I mentioned before every grip cert beyond CoC has been video-based, and there has always been an element of trust involved, why is the witness needed? Who decides what counts as someone in high regard? The level of complexity isn't worth the defense it potentially provides from cheating. I do agree that a witness is one more layer of protection so to speak (assuming you are using witness+video) but I don't think it's worth the effort. There just isn't enough cheating going on in gripsport to warrant driving multiple hours to meet up with someone to close a gripper when you have video. There's no money on the line for certs and anyone cheating would likely not stick around or eventually be caught on a video mistake anyway. Given the low payoff of cheating for grip certs I'd call it a non-issue. I'd have no issue if some community members wanted to come over, grill up some steaks and hang for a cert close but I think the current system has worked pretty well.

[Lennix]

3 hours ago, HandsMcHanderson said:

There just isn't enough cheating going on in gripsport to warrant driving multiple hours to meet up with someone to close a gripper when you have video. There's no money on the line for certs and anyone cheating would likely not stick around or eventually be caught on a video mistake anyway. Given the low payoff of cheating for grip certs I'd call it a non-issue. I'd have no issue if some community members wanted to come over, grill up some steaks and hang for a cert close but I think the current system has worked pretty well.

This is because the cert lost it's value due to making it easier to do it. 

And there's definitely cheating going on in gripsport, just last years king kong a venue was removed from the competition. And regarding videos, people don't even care enough to see if its lbs or kg on the scales when people are doing worldrecords. And if you were to point it out, you're a hater. 

 

And I'm actually the first Coc#3 video certer and I've also certed the red nail on video. If I could have chosen I would have prefered to travel 3h to Wigren or 2.5h to Arne Persson and do the cert infront of them to erase any doubt. Same as I travel 3-5h for gripcompetitions and armwrestling matches. It's not really a problem to travel for something you love to do. If the certification is important enough for you. 

Edited February 1 by Lennix

[HandsMcHanderson]

 

If judges aren’t taking the time to check if it’s KG or LBS I wouldn’t trust them in person either. I assume it’s caught and called out though if it’s on video for a cert attempt
 

I wasn’t following things closely last year so can’t comment on the venue being removed, I assume someone was caught cheating. Was it in a way that would be doable during video based certs?

It’s great that you are able to travel for all of your attempts/comps. I don’t know that everyone has that ability depending on their responsibilities in life. 
 

I also never said there wasn’t any cheating going on, and I’m not sure what was meant by your 1st line. anyone willing to cheat over this stuff must lead a pretty sad existence.

Edited February 1 by HandsMcHanderson

[HandsMcHanderson]

5 hours ago, Lennix said:

This is because the cert lost it's value due to making it easier to do it. 

And there's definitely cheating going on in gripsport, just last years king kong a venue was removed from the competition. And regarding videos, people don't even care enough to see if its lbs or kg on the scales when people are doing worldrecords. And if you were to point it out, you're a hater. 

 

And I'm actually the first Coc#3 video certer and I've also certed the red nail on video. If I could have chosen I would have prefered to travel 3h to Wigren or 2.5h to Arne Persson and do the cert infront of them to erase any doubt. Same as I travel 3-5h for gripcompetitions and armwrestling matches. It's not really a problem to travel for something you love to do. If the certification is important enough for you. 

 

[Climber028]

It sounds like some of you are just plain honest, and can't imagine why or how someone would cheat but I promise you these people exist in everything. I've seen people cheat things as silly as a juggling competition, with literally no prize. I've seen someone re-program a video game to cheat, all to end up higher in a ranking in a simple list which again has no prizes or reward of any kind. I've watched multiple people attempt to cheat in real life grip competitions, and there's hundreds of videos of people lifting with fake weight plates. 

I have no idea whether these feats are real or not, but what I do know is no sport or hobby is immune from cheaters, they have strange motivations that wouldn't make sense at all to an average person and it's also very easy to cheat a lot of things since generally we trust each other. 

[Lennix]

Anyway it's kinda pointless discussions with online certs or no online certs. With the current phase AI is evolving, no video will be easy to prove not altered with soon. 

So it comes back to the competition results, but heck even I have some lifts I totaly would have given 3 red lights done in competition. 

[Cannon]

35 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

It sounds like some of you are just plain honest, and can't imagine why or how someone would cheat but I promise you these people exist in everything. I've seen people cheat things as silly as a juggling competition, with literally no prize. I've seen someone re-program a video game to cheat, all to end up higher in a ranking in a simple list which again has no prizes or reward of any kind. I've watched multiple people attempt to cheat in real life grip competitions, and there's hundreds of videos of people lifting with fake weight plates. 

I have no idea whether these feats are real or not, but what I do know is no sport or hobby is immune from cheaters, they have strange motivations that wouldn't make sense at all to an average person and it's also very easy to cheat a lot of things since generally we trust each other. 

Good post and points.  

[Blacksmith513]

36 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

It sounds like some of you are just plain honest, and can't imagine why or how someone would cheat but I promise you these people exist in everything. I've seen people cheat things as silly as a juggling competition, with literally no prize. I've seen someone re-program a video game to cheat, all to end up higher in a ranking in a simple list which again has no prizes or reward of any kind. I've watched multiple people attempt to cheat in real life grip competitions, and there's hundreds of videos of people lifting with fake weight plates. 

I have no idea whether these feats are real or not, but what I do know is no sport or hobby is immune from cheaters, they have strange motivations that wouldn't make sense at all to an average person and it's also very easy to cheat a lot of things since generally we trust each other. 

Your first sentence is spot on! 
 

These people exist. I’m very honest and perhaps too naive. 
 

I’ve been taking advantage of and screwed really bad by a few people over the last few years.. a few of them did it on the sly.
 

 

I don’t trust people unless they’ve proven it now. 
 

IDK what the answer is for the certs. There are plenty of members here I trust when they post things. They know who they are, even then just because I do doesn’t mean everyone else does. 
 

There’s a lot of play in “using your own discretion”. 
 

But clearly who ever decides the rules for certs should listen to our feedback and come up with something so everyone is happy.  There should be no doubt when someone certs or performs a feat. It’s either a pass or fail.

[Climber028]

The amount of proof just needs to match the difficulty. I don't need any proof at all if someone says they closed a Coc 2 for the first time, I'll just believe anybody there is also no significance. Anything at a world record level or very close to that just needs more evidence it's really that simple

[Cannon]

33 minutes ago, Blacksmith513 said:

But clearly who ever decides the rules for certs should listen to our feedback and come up with something so everyone is happy.  There should be no doubt when someone certs or performs a feat. It’s either a pass or fail.

I think one of the best things you can do for a gripper cert is get the gripper back as part of the cert process. If it's distinctive in the first place (unique markings that can be seen on video) and you get the gripper back so it can be checked after, then you're down to someone doing CGI on the video as the only concern. 

One thing that I think we can hope for is AI analysis of whether AI tampered with a project. We are already seeing this with ChatGPT. AI can scrutinize a piece of "original" writing and make a determination about whether AI probably wrote the piece. The same thing for video should be possible and maybe even easier. If AI video editing is so ubiquitous that people can use it in gripper videos, I bet there will be websites where you can upload a video and reliably check for AI fingerprints.

Interesting times. I feel like this is me. 

 

[HandsMcHanderson]

18 minutes ago, Cannon said:

I think one of the best things you can do for a gripper cert is get the gripper back as part of the cert process. If it's distinctive in the first place (unique markings that can be seen on video) and you get the gripper back so it can be checked after, then you're down to someone doing CGI on the video as the only concern. 

One thing that I think we can hope for is AI analysis of whether AI tampered with a project. We are already seeing this with ChatGPT. AI can scrutinize a piece of "original" writing and make a determination about whether AI probably wrote the piece. The same thing for video should be possible and maybe even easier. If AI video editing is so ubiquitous that people can use it in gripper videos, I bet there will be websites where you can upload a video and reliably check for AI fingerprints.

Interesting times. I feel like this is me. 

 

I do think we will get better in terms of determining deepfakes, though it will be a race between how good deepfakes can be made and how well they can be detected. The AI based plagiarization checkers like Turnitin have issues with false positives and items written by non-native speakers but video really is a different beast. There’s a current initiative called Detect Fakes that focuses on methods to detect deep fakes that I’ve been following pretty closely. Hopefully in the next few years the effort will pay off. There are already a few services to do it and I think in time they will be an asset.

[Jared P]

In-person witnesses simply isn't a likely solution in the future, despite how many would want it. It is cost and time prohibitive for most people. It doesn't matter so much that you personally would travel 1,500 miles on foot uphill both ways in a blizzard in order to prove your legitimacy, most people aren't going to do this. Video is much more reasonable and convenient, and makes the barrier to entry much easier for newcomers into the sport.

Safeguards can be put in place to severely limit, if not completely eradicate the option of cheating on a video certification. Packages, gripper springs, handles, and even pins can all feature special engravings or markings to ensure handles haven't been swapped or removed, as well as grippers being sent back for close inspection prior to authentication or approval. Aforementioned AI video tools can be used to examine videos for signs of manipulation or editing. These are more reasonable solutions for the future, rather than the laborious process of coordinating 'reliable' in-person witnesses on a global scale. This is also why the Mash Monster cert has the potential to be the most reliable cert, as everyone is closing the same carefully inspected and monitored grippers.

Regarding Tiziano's videos themselves (not merely insinuations), has anyone personally seen anything in his videos that would suggest either physical or video manipulation with his certifications, namely the CoC 3.5, GHP and GM certifications? Surely, if he cheated these certifications, there must be something in the way of visual cues to suggest manipulation, no? I think we are all completely open to that evidence, if shown to us. I personally haven't seen anything yet, but am open to being convinced otherwise.

With this video of his GHP 9 certification (as well as his CoC 3.5 video and GMcert video), for instance, is there anything at all there that would suggest to you that either the gripper or video itself has been manipulated, and that he didn't actually close this GHP 9 with a 38mm block set? The measurements are all on point. 7.8mm spring diameter, 73.4mm spread, 38mm block. These all match with my GHP 9, though mine has a larger spread and lower rating, but possibly less shallow mount. The only area I could even imagine any manipulation would be with the handle mount depth (which would theoretically make the spread much wider than 74mm), or the constitution of the spring material itself being compromised through heat. If Tiziano still has this gripper, perhaps it could be inspected by CPW for instance, to test for any modification.

These are the types of conversations that make more sense to me, rather than "so and so is cheating, I just know it".

[Londonjoseph]

4 hours ago, Jared P said:

In-person witnesses simply isn't a likely solution in the future, despite how many would want it. It is cost and time prohibitive for most people. It doesn't matter so much that you personally would travel 1,500 miles on foot uphill both ways in a blizzard in order to prove your legitimacy, most people aren't going to do this. Video is much more reasonable and convenient, and makes the barrier to entry much easier for newcomers into the sport.

Safeguards can be put in place to severely limit, if not completely eradicate the option of cheating on a video certification. Packages, gripper springs, handles, and even pins can all feature special engravings or markings to ensure handles haven't been swapped or removed, as well as grippers being sent back for close inspection prior to authentication or approval. Aforementioned AI video tools can be used to examine videos for signs of manipulation or editing. These are more reasonable solutions for the future, rather than the laborious process of coordinating 'reliable' in-person witnesses on a global scale. This is also why the Mash Monster cert has the potential to be the most reliable cert, as everyone is closing the same carefully inspected and monitored grippers.

Regarding Tiziano's videos themselves (not merely insinuations), has anyone personally seen anything in his videos that would suggest either physical or video manipulation with his certifications, namely the CoC 3.5, GHP and GM certifications? Surely, if he cheated these certifications, there must be something in the way of visual cues to suggest manipulation, no? I think we are all completely open to that evidence, if shown to us. I personally haven't seen anything yet, but am open to being convinced otherwise.

With this video of his GHP 9 certification (as well as his CoC 3.5 video and GMcert video), for instance, is there anything at all there that would suggest to you that either the gripper or video itself has been manipulated, and that he didn't actually close this GHP 9 with a 38mm block set? The measurements are all on point. 7.8mm spring diameter, 73.4mm spread, 38mm block. These all match with my GHP 9, though mine has a larger spread and lower rating, but possibly less shallow mount. The only area I could even imagine any manipulation would be with the handle mount depth (which would theoretically make the spread much wider than 74mm), or the constitution of the spring material itself being compromised through heat. If Tiziano still has this gripper, perhaps it could be inspected by CPW for instance, to test for any modification.

These are the types of conversations that make more sense to me, rather than "so and so is cheating, I just know it".

I don't see how getting a judge of some sort is very hard, unless you live in Antarctica, or some other weird place. Sure, it may take some effort in some places, but plenty of users have expressed it is indeed worth it to them. 

Regardless of "safeguards" "sealed packages" "preventative measures" "special engravings" "AI tools" etc, It's really not a "Laborious process" to get a judge for *most* people. As for the "barrier to entry" for newcomers, I don't need a judge for some random that claims to close a COC 2 first try. 99.9% of people are not jumping straight to 3.5 cert. 

 

I'll tell you what, if someone never performs in front of another credible person, never competes, and has 0 reliable "in person feats", then that person is just a stranger who happens to have a camera, nothing more. 

Regardless of what others may think of my own opinion on the matter, I'm not calling anyone out here, or saying "so and so is a FRAUD!!!". A witness was an integral part of ironminds cert process. 

Having in person witness was a HUGE part of the certification process ironmind had. They only changed that when the pandemic hit. If there was no pandemic, judges would still be a requirement.

[Jared P]

14 minutes ago, Londonjoseph said:

I don't see how getting a judge of some sort is very hard, unless you live in Antarctica, or some other weird place. Sure, it may take some effort in some places, but plenty of users have expressed it is indeed worth it to them. 

Regardless of "safeguards" "sealed packages" "preventative measures" "special engravings" "AI tools" etc, It's really not a "Laborious process" to get a judge for *most* people. As for the "barrier to entry" for newcomers, I don't need a judge for some random that claims to close a COC 2 first try. 99.9% of people are not jumping straight to 3.5 cert. 

 

I'll tell you what, if someone never performs in front of another credible person, never competes, and has 0 reliable "in person feats", then that person is just a stranger who happens to have a camera, nothing more. 

Regardless of what others may think of my own opinion on the matter, I'm not calling anyone out here, or saying "so and so is a FRAUD!!!". A witness was an integral part of ironminds cert process. 

Having in person witness was a HUGE part of the certification process ironmind had. They only changed that when the pandemic hit. If there was no pandemic, judges would still be a requirement.

That's fine. I suppose people who desire a witness can acquire them. Though I'm not sure how you decide if a witness is reliable or not.

Other than the lack of a witness and his bodyweight, is there anything present in his videos that suggests his feats aren't legitimate to you?

[Londonjoseph]

Just now, Jared P said:

That's fine. I suppose people who desire a witness can acquire them. Though I'm not sure how you decide if a witness is reliable or not.

Other than the lack of a witness and his bodyweight, is there anything present in his videos that suggests his feats aren't legitimate to you?

Again, like I said earlier in this thread, I'm not saying he isn't legitimate. 

 

I'm just saying video only isn't proof.