Hand Size

[Roark]

For a given size bar diameter, the longer your hand length, the easier the bar diameter becomes.

Conversely, for a given hand length, the smaller the bar diameter, the easier the grasp- each of us, starting with a 3" diameter bar will deadlift less than on a 2.5" diameter bar etc., and this will continue until the bar reaches a diameter which is so small it 'cuts' into the hand.

This seems true also for blob lifting, does it not?

I remember John Wood mentioning his basketball player friend who was not noteworthy in regard to general strength, but who almost casually picked up an Inch and strolled a few feet before asking, 'What do you do with this thing?'

Is that man's training advice on how to lift an Inch of any value to anyone with much shorter hands?

I know parallels can be used against my argument (the hurdles in track are not raised for taller runners etc)., but

if we can stay on the topic of grip, I'd would like your feedback to this question:

However unmeasureable a factor it may be, is it not obvious than hand length becomes a significant factor in certain grip feats? The fact that shorter handed men have performed some remarkable feats usually found only in the land of big hands shows their determination to overcome this handicap; it does not show fairness from the start.

That's why I thought of Fairbar- each bar proportioned to a given lifter's length of hand.

[mobsterone]

I think thats why every contest has more than one event its only when one lift is offered as an example of ones outstanding 'grip' that the less informed would take it as true.

Using big Tony Scrivens as an example his Inch lift is outstanding and he has big hands and yet if I didn't know otherwise I could easily say that thats it - thats all he can do but of course he's also good for standard bar partial deadlifts.

[Rick Walker]

Roark-

I don't like the idea of Fairbar for this reason:

The Inch dumbbell is considered world class in the grip world, correct? The reason it is a world class feat isnt because of its weight-172 pounds is nothing. The reason it is world class is because of its huge handle diameter.

If we start thinking of hand sizes and adjusting bars to hand size-a feat no longer becomes world class IMO.

The whole mystique behind the Inch is it seems unliftable-it just rolls right out of your hand. Changing the bar size takes that mystique away-and makes it attainable for everyone in a very short amount of time.

If it takes me 10 years to lift the Inch-so be it. The Inch is designed for grip. Big handed men have the advantage-but they still have to be strong SOBs. Look how many huge handed men failed at the Blob at the Arnold! Wade said a number of men had hands larger than his-and still couldnt pick it up!

Rick Walker

[bender]

EXAMPLE:

This morning, I was playing with a 30lb hex-head blob. A curious drill sergeant came over (HUGE hands, almost closed the #2) and pinches the weight across the side in such a manner I've never tried before. He lifted the weight in this manner and laughed at how hard it felt.

Of course, I tried and found my hand did not even stretch that far, and no part of my finger tips could even reach the surface he pinched.

Rorak's arugument isn't against the Inch dumbell, but the factor of hand size in grip feats. Pretend this hex-head lift was a "world class" feat. How can it even be considered world class if it is impossible for some people(me) to even attempt?

Yes, it's amazing to watch these feats of strength, and items like The Blob and The Inch will stand alone, but for competition the difference in hand-size is a major factor for a number of lifts, so much of a factor that hand size alone allowed the afore-mentioned basketball player to curiously pick up and walk with The Inch, with Zero training.

QUESTION TO ALL:

Did he have world-class hand strength? Or world-class hand size?

[Roark]

Bender,

That is my point, and thank you for understanding.

Rick,

The 172 lbs is nothing as you write. Until the 172 lbs is formed the way it is in an Inch etc.

We really do not disagree- you say it may take you years

to lift the Inch, and frankly, given what I perceive of your determination, I suspect, no matter how long it takes, you will achieve the lift.

BUT.

Back to John Wood's friend who casually picked up the Inch- is he stronger than you? Not according to John.

But if you and this other man were in an Inch dumbell lifting contest, you would lose, NOT because he was stronger but because his hand was longer.

IF, Fairbar had been in place and he was required to use the proportional size diameter corresponding to your Fairbar, I think we all know the outcome would change.

I know Fairbar is not practical. but it is possible. What is impossible is for a shorter handed man to overcome a much longer handed man on wide implements.

No joke: If we heard of a midget with very small hands deadlifting the Inch, would he not have to go to the top of the list all things considered?

[Roark]

Let me add this: Apollon's great hand/grip strength was in part because of his huge hands- he SHOULD have been able to lift thick bars as easily as he did,and in a

Fairbar contest others would have lifted more if they had been allowed a proportioned bar diameter to what he used.

Apollon deliberately culled his competitors by using his hand size and thick bars as a screening tool to filter out strong men with smaller hands. Fair enough, but not Fairbar.

[mobsterone]

Again I state this is why in all the grip comps different lifts are used as a measure of grip strength. I mean here I am with 'thick bar daddy' as a title and loving thick bar work and yet I am defending the other aspects of grip. 'Fairbar' really only addresses one aspect and that alone makes it - if not impractible - certainly not the measure of strength that it would seem.

[Roark]

Of course the other aspects of grip could be adapted to something like a Fairbar standard. My interest lies in thick bar. But:

Grippers- why did the manufacture of extremely wide grippers cease? I do not know, but I suspect they were too wide for most people to set or even adequately 'reach' with one hand. What if they had not stopped being manufactured? Shorter handed guys would

not do well if they other hand was not allowed to aid in the set in competition.

Blobs: same as Fairbar- you can't lift what you can't grasp.

Farmer's Carry: probably among the more fair of competitive implements.

I would suggest that because Fairbar addresses only one aspect, and in my view, solves that aspect, that other feats should be examined for proper across-the-board fairness. It may never become practical, but it is most certainly measureable and meaningful.

[HAMMERHEAD]

I really like the fairbar idea. It makes a heavy thick bar lift a goal everybody can strive for. It is no different than setting a gripper, which allows people to get their short digits around the handles for a squeeze.

I am glad that in a contest there are many events; however, bigger hands still are an advantage. I know I'd be pissed if some weak handed sissy out lifted me because he has long fingers .

Remember, the fairbar levels the playing field. Yes, it may make a bar more narrow for a midget; but, it will also make a bar thicker for a giant. Either way, it is a thick bar for the individual lifting it.

-HH

[bseedot]

I remain torn on this issue. On the one hand I've stated, from the beginning, that if formulas are to be used in grip strength exercises or contests, hand size should somehow be incorporated into that formula. The other hand is why I italicize the if in the previous sentence. It comes from my 'get in where you fit in' perspective. I know, Roark, that you asked that we stay on the topic of grip, but that's difficult when talking about 'fairness' in sport. Should there be a fairbar height for the 5'5", 250 pound aspiring high jumper? I say absolutely not. They need to find something more constructive and productive to do with their time or continue to become a better high jumper knowing that they'll never reach a top level in that event. Either option is perfectly acceptable, especially if that person enjoys what they're doing.

BC.

[Rick Walker]

It is obvious that John's basketball friend must have trained his grip in someway. Having a large hand does not guarantee an automatic Inch lift. Derek's hands are much bigger than mine-yet he struggles with anything over 100 on my thick bar handle without bracing.

If having large hands alone guaranteed success-then many men would have hoisted the Blob at the Arnold-right?

You still have to train-granted-big handed men may not have to train as hard-but they still half to have some measure of hand strength.

Realizing where my weaknesses lie-I would not enter an inch only contest. In a contest of multiple events, I would stand a much better chance.

The argument can be made for any strength even-short guys deadlift better cause they are shorter, guys with short arms have advantage over long armed men in the bench press-should we set standards for that as well?

Rick Walker

[Roark]

Yes we can illustrate from other sports, and frankly, I do not care what those other sports do- but in basketball, for example, though not a strength feat, is it not easier to 'pinch lift' a basketball if your fingers are longer?

Anyway, I think John Wood's friend did no special training-but John- are you listening? How about it?

One final note:

Not all those who can deadlift an Inch have knowledge to impart to those of us who cannot. If John's friend had no grip training, then how can he have knowledge to impart to us if he lifted it on the first try due to long fingers? What did his training consist of: simply bending over and standing up with it. One rep one set; end of knowledge.

[supersqueeze]

The only logical argument against Fair Bar is that of practicality and, of course, Mr. Roark frankly acknowledges that.

Mike M.

[John Wood]

Some people are just genetically gifted to perform certain strength feats. We all know who they are. Look at Bob Peoples in the deadlift. In some cases though theres no reason why they are good at what they do, they just are. Theres a football player here at michigan, a defensive back who weighs about 180. I saw him get 31 reps with 225 one day. His arms are not particularly short. His rib box is not overly large, hes just blessed with amazing ability. If you were to ask him what his bench workout looked like hed probably shrug it off. He doest even train that hard but thats just how he is. That basketball player did no grip training of any kind and little training of any other kind. I will go out on a limb and say that his hand was one of the largest in the world. My hand is over 8 inches and looked like a childs hand next to his. A large hand does not guarantee a strong grip but a large trained hand does. In seeing the basketball player train, I was surprised that he had the leg and back strength to lift the inch.

[EricMilfeld]

By using the fair bar method, you are essentially testing all of the comtetitors' hand strength at a given anatomical position, as opposed to contesting a short handed contestant's nearly stretched open hand position to a long handed contestant's nearly clenched hand position. That to me is the definition of fair. Carrying this same logic over to deadlifting, we would suggest setting the bar height to the point midway between the floor and the lifter's kneecap. Maybe impractical, but it would be more fair. Sure the sporting world is full of inconsistencies and unlevel playing fields, but why not correct what we can correct?

[Bill Piche]

One of my new pet peeves...

Everyone seems to have a "not so big hand or average hand".

I laughed when I read the statement by the 6'7" guy. If his hand isn't larger than most, who would have a larger hand? The 7 footers!?

If 1/8 of an inch is a big deal in closing a gripper, why would even the smallest increase in hand size not have an effect that's significant in wide pinching/blob lifting. I am talking about trained individuals. Not some schmuck who walks up untrained with a big hand.

[OldGuy]

The fact that even some tall and large people have been claiming an "average" size hand indicates that they want to be thought of as just plain strong rather than having some God given advantage.

[Roark]

John,

Are you saying your friend's hand was an inch longer than yours? Two inches?

If your hand is 8.25" then your Fairbar diameter is 2.62

(your hand was the same length as Hermann Goerner's if 8.25" is accurate)

If your friend has a 10.2" his Fairbar would be 3.25.

The Inch replica is 2.47" diameter barely under your Fairbar size, but .78" under his Fairbar.

You have seen some big fellows with the Bengals and at other football venues, yet you describe this fellows hands as though they are longer, so just for the fun of it, consider:

If his hand length is 11"- his Fairbar would be 3.5" .

If his hand length is 12.56" his Fairbar would be 4"

Is there any way you can contact this man and get a measurement? You know, for your old buddy Joe?

[mobsterone]

Make sure to mention its your 'old obssessed buddy joe:)' Joe what would Robert Wadlow's fairbar be?

[Roark]

The tall fellow? What was his hand size?

Regarding obsession. I prefer to consider it

consistent pursuit

[John Wood]

He failed out of school two years ago. Theres no telling where he is now. We werent close friends. The basketball team would lift in the weightroom at the same time as the football team so thats when I would seee him. The tallest guy I was ever around at the bengals was around 6'8" or so. This basketball player was 7'2". I always got a kick out of watching him have to bend down when going through a door way. Im guessing that his hand was about an inch and a half longer than mine but couldnt say for sure.

I did find this though:

http://www.mhoops.com/library/profiles/01-.../02moore1.shtml

[John Wood]

These too:

http://msuspartans.ocsn.com/sports/m-baskb...1aab.html?pic=0

http://www.mhoops.com/p-gallery/2000/4/mic...gan-hoops23.jpg

have you ever seen a basketball that looks like a shotput?

[Tom of Iowa2]

John,

A couple of years ago i met a guy that played for the Bengals.He worked out at a gym i work out at for 7 or 8 weeks.He trained with 'the cyborg' when in town..

His name was Ken Blackman.He had just signed with Tampa Bay.BUT i believe he started for the Bengals for awhile?He had HUGE thick hands and told us he wore a size 17 and 1/2 shoe.(The guy he worked out with wore a 15 1/2 so it looked about right).he was about 6'6 1/2".....had bolts in his knee caps is all i remember from a bad knee injury.I remeber watching him trying to squat.He listed to one side...and couldn't go down very far.5 plates a side looked like a toy on his back though.

I heard he retired.

Do you remember him?I bring him up because He said he had strong hands from farm work and working at a slaughter house.....said he was good at armwrestling(at least at the level that other NFL'ers are )??

i never worked out with him but watched several workouts with him and Sean.A large individual with who apparently has strong hands too.....

[Patrik_F]

Stop with those basketball pictures , you make me feel like a little kid

Would be cool to be 7 foot tall for one day, just walking around. Lifting weights might be tough though?

[Roark]

John,

Thanks for the effort and posting- that one photo

where he is scrambling for the ball- I could believe

his hands are 10 inches plus.

No wonder the Inch, for him, was not a thick bar.