Conditioning The Hands - Starting In Thick Or Thin Wraps?

[luuc]

Hello, in this topic, I started the discussion about whether it is better to start ones bending 'career' in thick or thin wraps.

My arguments:

When bending for a month in thick wraps, and then going back to thinner wraps, you'll get a feeling that you are going backwards, which is negative especially for someone who just starts bending. Fun will be lost for a while.

- When bending for a month in thick wraps, your skin, nerves, bonestructure, .. will not be exposed to the extreme forces of bending steel. At the same time, your wrists, muscles, joints, etc.. will strengthen very fast (which is normal for the body that needs to addept to a certain challenging movement, MU's and such..). When you go back to thinner wraps your body will feel like it's not really working, you're not breaking sweat or anything, but the skin, nerves, bonestructure, .. will undergo a lot of stress, that you may not even notice untill it is too late. Causing injury's.

I hope this will be a topic where problems will be solved and harmony will be maintained.

It is best for all the new starters, so they can learn from what the earlier bending-generations did wrong.

So please, let us know whay you think!

[jpmmkrahling]

Luuc, i would have to agree with you 100%. I started bending last November and by March i cert'd on the red nail. right after that i jumped up to double wraps and i really progressed pretty fast. I actually got a Huge Shiny in double wraps. Then i started training for the Steel Slayer Showdown and i found that the best i could do in thinner wraps was still a red (and still is today). So it was very disapointing to be working on a grand shiny in double wraps and now back to trying for a bastard in thin wraps.

I think my hands were not ready for me to attack so much steel with smaller wraps. I stayed motivated because of the contest but one day i noticed i had some kind of a bruise on my palm (it felt like a bruise but you could not see it) so i had to back off for a couple of weeks. Then i was back at it full force again and now i have a lump on my other palm (it is right where the base of the grippers posts against your palm) it only hurts when i try grippers or bend wrenches, so i have to be carefull.

It is my opinion that if i would have stayed with single wraps and kept getting better with a slower progression, i may not have injured myself. The tendons were just not ready even though the rest of my body was. I think everyone will have their own opinion about this but now you have my two cents.

I copied this from the earlier thread i wrote it on, it better fits this thread

[gazza]

Like everyone else ive used most types of bending wraps.

BUT! i personally never consider a bar defeated unless its bent in 3/4' wraps rolled around a 5/16" bar then i think ive earned the bend useing hand/finger and wrist strength not just upper body.

2 things happen when your a beginner ego and lazyness take over especially if your chaseing certs and lists much easier to wack on the thicker wraps and hit the high DO style and get some ego bends in

When you decide after a while maybe 6mths or a year or 2 that you wanna see what you can bend reverse or with the thinner wraps you are quickly humbled and realise that those 6mths to a couple of years did nothing for your bending they didnt prepare the hands or wrists or bending tendond because all the while they were taken out of it with the thicker wraps and high DO style technique a bit like a bencher after a few mths training putting on the bench shirts then benching for a few years hes actually like the thicker wrapper with the higher DO style useing muscle overload but its not specific because then ask this same bencher to go into a raw meet he has no foundation because he applied the bench shirts early on his career with building a foundation before he applied the shirts.The same is true of are Bender hes gone straight into the DO style with bigger wraps hes not built any finger hand and wrist conditioning and tendon strength before doing this UNLESS hes been doing grip training for a good while this will have helped but true bending strength is highly specific.

A person that has done construction/manual labour like a farmer/mechanic etc will have prepared the hands and wrists etc but will still have to adapt to the thinner wraps.

Why waste a good few mths or years satisfying ones ego when you can do it right from the start pretty soon a few years will have gone buy without you really noticing it and you will have built more tendon and ligament strength as well as made a very good start into conditioning the hands for all around bending and this will have been Free it wont cost you a thing or an enrolement on a fancy coarse all it will cost you is a little of your time and a humbling of your ego

Fat wraps have there place in bending but learn to use them wisely and with other wraps then reap the benefits.

[ewokhugo]

I used always tickers wraps to improve my previous p.b, it was the "easiest way". i remember after i bend one big bastard i tried one 5.5" g5 using a new pair of im wraps ...bend the bolt using a lot of concentration because it hurted a LOT(kink)!

i will use tickers wraps to train my "ego" and im wrap to train my tendons and raw power(or single leather) ..using other words ..to train my MIND!

i believe 90% of us are interest to bend big using fat wraps if necessary.

if your goal its to improve your p.b's use fat wraps ...

if your goal its to train and mind and become a "crazy" bender use im waps or single wraps ...

in the beggining the 1st idea was all that matter for me.

After i started to enjoy bending as a MIND experience i become more interest to feel some "kind" of pain during the bend(avoid the injury).

using 1 im wraps only its VERY fun ...

Edited August 16, 2009 by ewokhugo

[luuc]

i will use tickers wraps to train my "ego" and im wrap to train my tendons and raw power(or single leather) ..using other words ..to train my MIND!

That's a good explanation, but people who just started bending do not need an ego yet, they need to strengthen their hands.

Beating a PB is also possible in thin wraps by the way, just what you prefer.

When starting normal strength training, like powerlifting, best way to do it (-to make sure your progress doesn't stop after half a year, or you get an injury-), is to start learning the technique with an empty bar. Same for bending, (in my opinion) the best way to have a succesfull career is to first learn the basics and get used to the movement and force in thin wraps.

I started my career off very badly, inmediattely in thick wraps, not knowing the technique, etc.. I "used a lot of time" making mistakes, that time is not wasted because it gave me an opportunity to learn.

Edited August 16, 2009 by luuc

[easyWeight]

Like everyone else ive used most types of bending wraps.

BUT! i personally never consider a bar defeated unless its bent in 3/4' wraps rolled around a 5/16" bar then i think ive earned the bend useing hand/finger and wrist strength not just upper body.

2 things happen when your a beginner ego and lazyness take over especially if your chaseing certs and lists much easier to wack on the thicker wraps and hit the high DO style and get some ego bends in

When you decide after a while maybe 6mths or a year or 2 that you wanna see what you can bend reverse or with the thinner wraps you are quickly humbled and realise that those 6mths to a couple of years did nothing for your bending they didnt prepare the hands or wrists or bending tendond because all the while they were taken out of it with the thicker wraps and high DO style technique a bit like a bencher after a few mths training putting on the bench shirts then benching for a few years hes actually like the thicker wrapper with the higher DO style useing muscle overload but its not specific because then ask this same bencher to go into a raw meet he has no foundation because he applied the bench shirts early on his career with building a foundation before he applied the shirts.The same is true of are Bender hes gone straight into the DO style with bigger wraps hes not built any finger hand and wrist conditioning and tendon strength before doing this UNLESS hes been doing grip training for a good while this will have helped but true bending strength is highly specific.

A person that has done construction/manual labour like a farmer/mechanic etc will have prepared the hands and wrists etc but will still have to adapt to the thinner wraps.

Why waste a good few mths or years satisfying ones ego when you can do it right from the start pretty soon a few years will have gone buy without you really noticing it and you will have built more tendon and ligament strength as well as made a very good start into conditioning the hands for all around bending and this will have been Free it wont cost you a thing or an enrolement on a fancy coarse all it will cost you is a little of your time and a humbling of your ego

Fat wraps have there place in bending but learn to use them wisely and with other wraps then reap the benefits.

Gazza is a wise man He basically wrote the story of my bending career, lol! I've been caught up in the fat wrap DO style for almost eight months now from when I began. I started bending in IMPs early though, and killed my first Red Nail after 3-4 months and now I can kill Shinies also, but I've really been on a plateau for the last 2-3 months because I've never seriously trained any of the other styles, which I'm now finding to have been a big mistake.

My best fatty pad DO bend IMO is either the Huge Shiny or 5.5" hard CRS I have. However, my best DU and Reverse are only a 5" Black JH G5 (in fat wraps) and 7" Square, respectively. As gazza said, I was "quickly humbled" by this. I'm pretty positive my DO has been halted by this weakness as well. I don't think anyone can say it enough, TRAIN ALL STYLES FROM THE BEGINNING! Don't be like a lot of us egomaniacs and want everything right now. Take your time and don't worry about the certs, or the size of the steel. And most definitely train using the IMPs or thinner leather wraps as often as possible. Only get the fatter wraps out when you're hands are too sore to use the thinner ones. Your progress may seem slow in the beginning, but progress is progress, no matter if you move a bar 5 degrees further than last time, or 30 degrees further. If it's moving more, then you're getting stronger.

[yodajaeger]

Frankly, I don't see the point at all to start in thick wraps as a beginner. In almost every case the weakest link for a new bender will be hand/wrist strength and conditioning of tendons etc in the hands. As I see it, a new bender should devote some time to build up hands, wrists and fingers, rather than avoiding the weakness with equipment (i.e. the big wraps). Sort of if a beginner powerlifter would bench with plygear and benchshirt on his first training session.

So my recommendation would be: Stay away from big wraps until the grade 8 bolt is conquered.

A reflection: How much do u strengthen your ego if u know that there are lightyears between your p.b in thick wraps and your p.b in thin wraps ?

Edited August 16, 2009 by yodajaeger

[Dan Cenidoza]

Frankly, I don't see the point at all to start in thick wraps as a beginner. In almost every case the weakest link for a new bender will be hand/wrist strength and conditioning of tendons etc in the hands. As I see it, a new bender should devote some time to build up hands, wrists and fingers, rather than avoiding the weakness with equipment (i.e. the big wraps). Sort of if a beginner powerlifter would bench with plygear and benchshirt on his first training session.

So my recommendation would be: Stay away from big wraps until the grade 8 bolt is conquered.

A reflection: How much do u strengthen your ego if u know that there are lightyears between your p.b in thick wraps and your p.b in thin wraps ?

I agree with this.

Something else to consider is that you can vary the wraps within the workout as a method of progression. I worked my way up to a Red nail with 13" leathers, then 11" and then IM pads all within the same workout. You could do so in reverse as well, starting with IM pads and progressing to thicker wraps as your hands get sore.

FWIW, I do not believe in using overly thick (or stiff) wraps. I think the limiting factor in bending will always be toughness of the hands and you shouldn't use anything more than that which simply pads the hands. The only reason I can see to use double wraps is if you're competing and your competition is using them. Chasing certs with increasingly thicker wraps is kinda silly IMHO.

[AdamTGlass]

Every week this topic is covered over and over it is dull. There are no secrets to be gained. no new information has been spread.

[luuc]

Seems like thicker wrapping is getting fewer supporters.. Think this is a good thing..

How much do u strengthen your ego if u know that there are lightyears between your p.b in thick wraps and your p.b in thin wraps ?

Until you try bending in small wraps, you will never know how much harder it is.

So for a beginner, thicker wraps are more attractive to use, because it doesn't hurt as much, but it seems like you are bending like an elite...

I think this is how the thick wrap tsunami is started, and untill we show how it is really, they wave of thought will travel on.

[luuc]

Every week this topic is covered over and over it is dull. There are no secrets to be gained. no new information has been spread.

Every problem has a solution, and untill we find it, we will be asked the same questions over and over, and untill we have the answer, we will respond with the same 'wrong' information and advice.

In my post above I hope to have found something that could help us.. Unless we don't want it.

[bencrush]

When I show someone how to bend they usually ask how thick the wraps should be. I tell them to use whatever they feel like training with. Some guys choose wraps that are about as thick as the IMP and others choose about 50% fatter pads. Consistently, the guys that have spent the majority of their training time with the fatter pads are the ones that make the best gains over time. It probably comes down to the fact that they can train more frequently with fatter pads than with thinner pads. Just like with any type of training there are so many paths to the goal. Some guys like taking a ride on the pain train and others have to use their hands to make a living. For guys that spend most of their day typing and writing, it's wise to go with thicker pads, IMO.

[bencrush]

I agree with this.

Something else to consider is that you can vary the wraps within the workout as a method of progression. I worked my way up to a Red nail with 13" leathers, then 11" and then IM pads all within the same workout. You could do so in reverse as well, starting with IM pads and progressing to thicker wraps as your hands get sore.

FWIW, I do not believe in using overly thick (or stiff) wraps. I think the limiting factor in bending will always be toughness of the hands and you shouldn't use anything more than that which simply pads the hands. The only reason I can see to use double wraps is if you're competing and your competition is using them. Chasing certs with increasingly thicker wraps is kinda silly IMHO.

I see your point Dan, even though we're on two different planets when it comes to bending and overall strength. The "only enough padding to pad the hands" thing is sometimes hard for me to understand though. A Kleenex wrapped around a Bastard is technically padding the hands a little. I think you're leaning more towards a cut-down pair of Ironmind Pads, but you see my point too. I still have my 4"X4" leather pads that I cut last year and used a bit. They provide barely any padding on DO, but when I used them on DU they didn't affect my top-end strength as much as the DO bends. I also understand your sentiment about chasing certs with increasingly thicker wraps. I'd say the same about chasing certs with increasingly smaller pads though.

The point of diminishing returns is somewhere in the middle between minimal pads and fat pads. If you decide today to switch to barehand-only bending you'd be limiting yourself in the short and long run. And by limiting, I mean you wouldn't be challenging your muscles or attachments with the meager bends that most of us mortals are capable of barehanded. But if you had been using the "OMNI-PAD" approach, you'd have made great progress both in small and fat pads.

This isn't aimed at you (Dan) by the way. I know you don't specialize on bending and look at it more as a side endeavor or an occasional test of strength. Sometimes the pad discussions remind me of how I started training with no set on the grippers and stuck with that style even when others were making great gains by incorporating parallel-set training and other methods into their training. Only when I used a wider range of closes did I soon after close my first #3 and go on to be able to warm up with grippers that once were my max close.

[bencrush]

Luuc, are you still bending barehand by the way? You are probably your own best guinea pig at this point. You're certain that minimal-pad bending has helped your overall bending strength and I don't doubt you at all. I would say that the thicker-pad bending has done wonders for your overall strength too. 50-50? Who knows. I'd guess you don't care as long as the gains keep coming.

[David_wigren]

It seems that many have the impression that the only way to get strong in bending is to use double pads. I make just as good gains while bending with thick pads as I do when bending with small pads.

Personally I think it's best to use both. Bend with single wraps and if your hands hurt, slapp on another pair of wraps.

But as a beginner I think it is important to start with the single wraps. I remember that my hands used to hurt down to the knuckles and bones during the first month. But I overdid it and bent stuff almost everyday smashing one PR after another pretty much everyday.

Nowadays I rarely have trouble doing kink isos with IMP's or smaller. It can hurt sometimes if I go overboard but it never hurt after a bending session, only during.

I can imagine that if I hade started with thick wraps and only bent with thick wraps. I would completely stay away from the small wraps. Heck I remember after my first 3-6 months I had a period where I always bent with big wraps and when I switched back to smaller wraps, I almost passed out from the pain. Felt like I was gonna break my fingers paticularly my index fingers.

If you ask me use both in training.

If you only bend with big wraps you will get strong but your hands fingers and wrists get girly

[gazza]

Adam and Josh

I thought you pair might have been all for a topic/thread to discuss ways of conditioning the hands whilst useing different wraps.

You are right in that there are no secrets but the majority of new benders people who dont have the luxury of one to one coaching that come on here or youtube etc and watch the majority of bending videos which are done in bigger wraps in a high DO style so they are at this point in time ignorant of alot of bending styles,wraps etc they think its the norm and go from there.

people also think that the top/elite benders etc have mystical powers or use secret training stategies when you and i both no that its just down to a few basic things like never giving in to pain,constantlly pushing your own boundaries and always seeing how far you can push your own "LIMITS" but like i said thats fine if the newbies etc are fortunite enough to get some coaching or pointers from you,or Ben or a friend etc but that still leaves a heck of alot to discover things for themselves and out of that maybe a handfull at the most will figure it out for themselves,the rest will come on here and on the tube and follow the masses.

Bending has already gone down the slippery slope of no return you only have to look at ERICS new list to see that 95 percent of the benders on hewre dont want any part of it shown by the all the people that want to give it a go in the new rules and wraps etc i was going to send in some stuff for eric to calibrate to put on the lists but there is David and me who have bothered so whats the point.

Like i said bending has already gone past the point of no return and sad to say but in the next few years people will only see a certain type of bending controlled and dictated by the masses and i for one dont want a part of that.

[yodajaeger]

Bending has already gone down the slippery slope of no return you only have to look at ERICS new list to see that 95 percent of the benders on hewre dont want any part of it shown by the all the people that want to give it a go in the new rules and wraps etc i was going to send in some stuff for eric to calibrate to put on the lists but there is David and me who have bothered so whats the point.

Like i said bending has already gone past the point of no return and sad to say but in the next few years people will only see a certain type of bending controlled and dictated by the masses and i for one dont want a part of that.

I really don't see the point of this post... Luuc started a thread concerning the benefits of thick/thin wraps for beginners, and several different opinions/recommendations have been presented (with supporting arguments). Suddenly it turns into a negative, energy-draining rant about the sad state of today's bending. What does it have to do with the purpose of the thread?

[Guest Bullitt]

I'm a complete newbie to this stuff and I hadn't seen the earlier threads concerning thick vs. thin, so this has actually been beneficial to me and I appreciate everybody's feedback. Not that the opinion of a rank amateur like me matters much, but I'm going to give it anyway.

When I started bending, I couldn't bend anything DO because of my inflexible shoulders. The first thing I ever bent was a 60D reverse. Then I got one DU. Finally I was able to get one DO. Whenever I move up to a new PR piece of steel, I always use double wraps until I have mastered that particular hardness, then I switch to single pads until I can do it like that. I have now bent 60Ds, regular grade 1/4" bolts and 1/4" round stock at various lengths in single wraps. I think there are benefits to training both ways. When learning the techniques and moving to bigger steel for the first few times, it is a plus for me to use the thicker wraps so hand pain doesn't become the limiting factor. It also allows you to bend bigger stuff and build strength faster than using single wraps. That being said, dealing with the pain and building tendon, wrist and hand strength by using thin wraps is also a key part. To me they are complimentary.

It is very similar to the deadlift. In order to build all around strength, people need to lift with all three hand styles. DO to work the grip to it's max. Alternate hands to continue working grip but to tax the posterior chain with more weight than they can handle DO. Finally, for those guys that really want to develop the back and can handle even more weight (where grip is the limiting factor), there is nothing wrong with using straps occassionally to really kill everything and not be limited by the strength of their grip. (This is not saying that the goal shouldn't be to strengthen the grip as much as possible so it limits you to a lesser degree). Again, complimentary and similar to bare steel, thin wraps, and thick wraps.

I want to learn all styles and bend with varying degrees of padding. IMHO (and as a complete noob), I think there is room for both styles. And if you limit yourself to just one wrapping method, you might be limiting your overall gains you could achieve. It will obviously be different for everybody.

As an added note, I can't wait to be bending big steel in thin wraps and get on Eric's list, so Gazza please get on that list and set the bar high so I have a great goal to shoot for someday!

Edited August 19, 2009 by Bullitt

[hamil1km]

I'm a complete newbie to this stuff and I hadn't seen the earlier threads concerning thick vs. thin, so this has actually been beneficial to me and I appreciate everybody's feedback. Not that the opinion of a rank amateur like me matters much, but I'm going to give it anyway.

When I started bending, I couldn't bend anything DO because of my inflexible shoulders. The first thing I ever bent was a 60D reverse. Then I got one DU. Finally I was able to get one DO. Whenever I move up to a new PR piece of steel, I always use double wraps until I have mastered that particular hardness, then I switch to single pads until I can do it like that. I have now bent 60Ds, regular grade 1/4" bolts and 1/4" round stock at various lengths in single wraps. I think there are benefits to training both ways. When learning the techniques and moving to bigger steel for the first few times, it is a plus for me to use the thicker wraps so hand pain doesn't become the limiting factor. It also allows you to bend bigger stuff and build strength faster than using single wraps. That being said, dealing with the pain and building tendon, wrist and hand strength by using thin wraps is also a key part. To me they are complimentary.

It is very similar to the deadlift. In order to build all around strength, people need to lift with all three hand styles. DO to work the grip to it's max. Alternate hands to continue working grip but to tax the posterior chain with more weight than they can handle DO. Finally, for those guys that really want to develop the back and can handle even more weight (where grip is the limiting factor), there is nothing wrong with using straps occassionally to really kill everything and not be limited by the strength of their grip. (This is not saying that the goal shouldn't be to strengthen the grip as much as possible so it limits you to a lesser degree). Again, complimentary and similar to bare steel, thin wraps, and thick wraps.

I want to learn all styles and bend with varying degrees of padding. IMHO (and as a complete noob), I think there is room for both styles. And if you limit yourself to just one wrapping method, you might be limiting your overall gains you could achieve. It will obviously be different for everybody.

As an added note, I can't wait to be bending big steel in thin wraps and get on Eric's list, so Gazza please get on that list and set the bar high so I have a great goal to shoot for someday!

Well said

[naturalstrength]

Show me the future of this thread, o crystal ball........

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dWk9R7Z3dBM/SJEF...-chain-lock.jpg

[gazza]

Why should it get locked nobodys getting aggressive or attacking anyone.

Like i said at the end of my first post i think thicker wraps have there place i just think they have took over which i stated in my posts.

The above is not me haveing ago at benders who use thick wraps in general my point is that 90 percent of the benders here and on youtube bend in thicker wraps yet i dont see them lining up to populate Erics new list and this does have an affect on bending in general and also the topic is about conditioning of the hands which will be done better useing less material otherwise the simple fact would be that all the benders would be able to bend the likes of a red or shiny in a washcloth or single ironmind wrap etc and thats clearly not the case.

I used all types of wraps in my 7 yrs of bending and like i said the bigger wraps do have there place i used then im my training alot and i could go on and on but im starting to bore myself no so will leave it there.

[gazza]

Bending has already gone down the slippery slope of no return you only have to look at ERICS new list to see that 95 percent of the benders on hewre dont want any part of it shown by the all the people that want to give it a go in the new rules and wraps etc i was going to send in some stuff for eric to calibrate to put on the lists but there is David and me who have bothered so whats the point.

Like i said bending has already gone past the point of no return and sad to say but in the next few years people will only see a certain type of bending controlled and dictated by the masses and i for one dont want a part of that.

I really don't see the point of this post... Luuc started a thread concerning the benefits of thick/thin wraps for beginners, and several different opinions/recommendations have been presented (with supporting arguments). Suddenly it turns into a negative, energy-draining rant about the sad state of today's bending. What does it have to do with the purpose of the thread?

Were is the RANT im just stateing some points bending and wraps are intertwined and the way people bend now and in the future will have an effect on how people bend .

Beginners come here and go on youtube these 2 places are the most popular places for bending so if they the beginners go to these to places to learn and see bending in bigger wraps by 90-95 percent then they are gonna follow the masses and ok it will get them bending but will it condition there hands.

Very sorry im so negative and energy sapping especially towards yourself just dont read anymore of my posts/threads in future then i wont have those affects on you.

Ive probably conditioned my hands for bending better than alot on here and i thought that might entitle me 2 explain my views on conditioning and bending in general bus i guesse not.

[bencrush]

I think Eric's list will slowly but surely get populated by some really good benders. I know a few guys who are training for it now - and I'm helping them. I'm not on the list because I'm not currently bending. If I was though it wouldn't be hard for me to abide by the rules of the new cert list and at least do a Huge Shiny. Others will join the list, just gotta let it build up some steam. Also remember that part of it is the rule that the steel has to be calibrated. I don't know a lot who would go to the "trouble" (I don't think it's trouble, but some do) of shipping and corresponding for a simple bend to be added to a cert list.

[David_wigren]

Alot of people will automaticly get on the list after the steel slayers contest. There's the jump start for the list.

I was going to submit a bend to the 7" list aswell as the 6" but I can't find any steel that I would be proud to have my name next to. Everything is either too easy or too hard. Pride was my reason for not submitting a 7" bend I think a similar scenario might be the case for alot right now. At least that was my reason why I didn't do it earlier.

Heck I might just do a 7" bastard since I'm interested in what they cal. Don't want to do a shiny. I don't trust them anymore. They bend easier than they cal and they are all over the place right now. Want to do an edgin but I'm to weak for theese that I have right now.

I think many struggle with theese problems right now. Not just getting stronger. Actually bending peices that are somewhat consistent.

I'm glad that we have a list like this since it lets us know more accuratly than ever before what we bend and how they compare.

More people will get on it slowly but surely

[Vice]

Thanks to everyone who has had input in this thread so far. It contains a lot of great information and will help many people, myself included.