Us Championships - 2008

[MalachiMcMullen]

Zach - I think your confusing the subject w/wraps again - how would you answer my question about bending barehanded? - which style do you think would require the most wrist strength without any wraps?

The biggest bar that I've seen bent bare-handed was done reverse style - not DU or DO is that the same observation for you? (Gary's 5/16 x 7 stainless)

As far as bending barehanded, your 100% right. The biggest bar ever bent barehanded was done Reverse. But let me supplement my response with a question. Have you ever tried barehanded bending DO/DU/reverse? It's entirely a pain tolerance thing. With DU and DO, the ends of the steel bar HAVE to dig into the hands if you are to bend them using the same hand positioning. With Reverse, at least for me, the ends of the bar DO NOT HAVE TO dig into my hands. On 7" stock my hands fit perfectly and I can keep the ends from pushing directly into my palms like they would with DU and DO. I have bent yellow nails barehanded using the reverse technique. Nothing amazing but I couldn't have done 3/16 CRS DO or DU barehanded. It just hurt too bad. Of course, you seem to feel no pain, Paul, so have at it

Absolutely, hence the double wraps and people going out on the ends a la the new reverse.

Now wait a minute. Everytime I've moved out to the ends on a reverse bend, I get a VERY off-center bend. How is your hand positioning? One hand holding half the bar and the other hanging off the end? I don't entirely understand what you mean by "new reverse" I remember Jedd's technique at Gripmas and I stand behind it but if that's what you consider "new reverse" then I don't see it's relevance here.

I love the internet. If we were all sitting in front of eachother at a table and talking, we could get this settled much faster

Just read Paul's next post. I never said Reverse was all wrists. It does however take a large portion of the chest out of the equation. I actually find that my wrists, forearms, biceps and lats get a bit of a workout in reverse bending. I can't deny that every style can be "folded." Are you guys trying to tell me reverse doesn't take more of a toll on your wrists than anything else?

Edited July 10, 2008 by MalachiMcMullen

[Paul Knight]

Zach - I think your confusing the subject w/wraps again - how would you answer my question about bending barehanded? - which style do you think would require the most wrist strength without any wraps?

The biggest bar that I've seen bent bare-handed was done reverse style - not DU or DO is that the same observation for you? (Gary's 5/16 x 7 stainless)

As far as bending barehanded, your 100% right. The biggest bar ever bent barehanded was done Reverse. But let me supplement my response with a question. Have you ever tried barehanded bending DO/DU/reverse? It's entirely a pain tolerance thing. With DU and DO, the ends of the steel bar HAVE to dig into the hands if you are to bend them using the same hand positioning. With Reverse, at least for me, the ends of the bar DO NOT HAVE TO dig into my hands. On 7" stock my hands fit perfectly and I can keep the ends from pushing directly into my palms like they would with DU and DO. I have bent yellow nails barehanded using the reverse technique. Nothing amazing but I couldn't have done 3/16 CRS DO or DU barehanded. It just hurt too bad. Of course, you seem to feel no pain, Paul, so have at it

Absolutely, hence the double wraps and people going out on the ends a la the new reverse.

Now wait a minute. Everytime I've moved out to the ends on a reverse bend, I get a VERY off-center bend. How is your hand positioning? One hand holding half the bar and the other hanging off the end? I don't entirely understand what you mean by "new reverse" I remember Jedd's technique at Gripmas and I stand behind it but if that's what you consider "new reverse" then I don't see it's relevance here.

I love the internet. If we were all sitting in front of eachother at a table and talking, we could get this settled much faster

HaHa I was just thinknig the same thing! - I knew you were typing a response and couldn't wait to see what it was going to say

back to subject - I see your point and have noticed the same, also is why I've played with some 8" stuff for that reason and I still get the same results - but your right about the pain - maybe thats why reverse is favored barehanded, like you said. I guess my analogy would be a mute point in that case But as far as reverse being harder than the other styles would only be true because your using your arms to fold with instead of your chest, but it is still a folding technique and not purley just wrist strength - even bending reverse barehanded my elbows hurt more than my wrists

I should probably just call you!

[MalachiMcMullen]

HaHa I was just thinknig the same thing! - I knew you were typing a response and couldn't wait to see what it was going to say

back to subject - I see your point and have noticed the same, also is why I've played with some 8" stuff for that reason and I still get the same results - but your right about the pain - maybe thats why reverse is favored barehanded, like you said. I guess my analogy would be a mute point in that case But as far as reverse being harder than the other styles would only be true because your using your arms to fold with instead of your chest, but it is still a folding technique and not purley just wrist strength - even bending reverse barehanded my elbows hurt more than my wrists

I should probably just call you!

Haha, a simple conversation would certainly clear it all up I suppose that is the point of contention then. I really think that wrist strength is the factor that makes reverse harder, you think it's the lack of chest involvement. To that I can only say that I respectfully disagree. That seems to me like it would be person to person. I have weak wrists, you certainly do not and your arms are not too shabby either Josh happens to be in the same position as you. Perhaps you both are more used to the movement than myself and thanks to your strengths, you feel Reverse bending differently? Perhaps time will tell in this regard.

[Paul Knight]

Haha, a simple conversation would certainly clear it all up I suppose that is the point of contention then. I really think that wrist strength is the factor that makes reverse harder, you think it's the lack of chest involvement. To that I can only say that I respectfully disagree. That seems to me like it would be person to person. I have weak wrists, you certainly do not and your arms are not too shabby either Josh happens to be in the same position as you. Perhaps you both are more used to the movement than myself and thanks to your strengths, you feel Reverse bending differently? Perhaps time will tell in this regard.

Indeed [the back 'n' forth was fun though ]

Edited July 10, 2008 by Paul Knight

[Bob Lipinski]

Paul- Usually only one style of grippers is contested per contest.

[burkhardmacht]

I've seen it stated in a couple of places that there doesn't need to be a size class as long as there are events that favor both large and small hand size. What exactly are the events that favor small hands?

Brent

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn5VjNhYJ2U

Hahaha!! I have the impression that the Euros will be BIG FUN this year .... !

[Jedd Johnson]

Just my thoughts on this:

Bending is a full body movement. When I bend I incorporate everything. My feet have to be positioned the right way so I am stable and can transfer power. My glutes get tired from squeezing them. My chest and back get worn out from radiating tension through them, into my arms and down through my forearms and writs to my hands. This is the only way i can bend what I bend when I do reverse style.

I choose reverse style because in my opinion, out of the three main ways, it focuses on wrist strength more than the others. I am not allowing the folding technique that I used last year at GGC and Gripmas because I think it takes away from the technique. Is wrist strength involved in DO and DU - of course! But, I feel the torso plays a way bigger role in completed the bend for those techniques, and when the contest is labeled a Grip contest, then the events need to have limiting factors of some form of Grip strength - in this case the wrists and the ability to maintain a grip on the nail and wrapping when pulling on it.

I'll never say reverse is pure wrist strength. And I'll never saw DO and DU are pure torso strength. Everything's a hybrid. If purity were what I was looking for in a bending event, I would have to probably go with the arms up reverse Josh mentioned, Heslep style, or the vertical style and these are both techniques that almost no one practices regularly. From what I have heard when there are events at a contest that no one practices, it lowers interest in the entire contest, and with gas and travel prices already skyrocketing, I have enough to worry about as far as getting people to attend the show - so those events are not going to appear at GGC.

Looking forward to it guys. Hopefully you all can make it!

[jad]

Zach - I think your confusing the subject w/wraps again - how would you answer my question about bending barehanded? - which style do you think would require the most wrist strength without any wraps?

The biggest bar that I've seen bent bare-handed was done reverse style - not DU or DO is that the same observation for you? (Gary's 5/16 x 7 stainless)

As far as bending barehanded, your 100% right. The biggest bar ever bent barehanded was done Reverse. But let me supplement my response with a question. Have you ever tried barehanded bending DO/DU/reverse? It's entirely a pain tolerance thing. With DU and DO, the ends of the steel bar HAVE to dig into the hands if you are to bend them using the same hand positioning. With Reverse, at least for me, the ends of the bar DO NOT HAVE TO dig into my hands. On 7" stock my hands fit perfectly and I can keep the ends from pushing directly into my palms like they would with DU and DO. I have bent yellow nails barehanded using the reverse technique. Nothing amazing but I couldn't have done 3/16 CRS DO or DU barehanded. It just hurt too bad. Of course, you seem to feel no pain, Paul, so have at it

Absolutely, hence the double wraps and people going out on the ends a la the new reverse.

Now wait a minute. Everytime I've moved out to the ends on a reverse bend, I get a VERY off-center bend. How is your hand positioning? One hand holding half the bar and the other hanging off the end? I don't entirely understand what you mean by "new reverse" I remember Jedd's technique at Gripmas and I stand behind it but if that's what you consider "new reverse" then I don't see it's relevance here.

I love the internet. If we were all sitting in front of eachother at a table and talking, we could get this settled much faster

Just read Paul's next post. I never said Reverse was all wrists. It does however take a large portion of the chest out of the equation. I actually find that my wrists, forearms, biceps and lats get a bit of a workout in reverse bending. I can't deny that every style can be "folded." Are you guys trying to tell me reverse doesn't take more of a toll on your wrists than anything else?

Watch some old videos of Pat bending reverse or some of the guys from 4-5 years ago when it was called "terminator style". It's very different than what we do today. I'm hardly one of the purists and I'm all for technique improvements but you have to call it what it is and it's not the wrist test it once was. Next time you bend reverse keep the knuckle of your index finger touching the back of your thumb. Once it starts to move, they'll come apart, but otherwise keep em' touching and see what you think. As for hand positioning you off center the pads to eliminate the uneven bend (experiment as needed) but the one is hanging off so you can fold.

BTW, great post Jedd

[Bob Lipinski]

Great post Jedd.

One thing that is overlooked is drawing new people to the sport. Yeah, I could likely go through a 12-16 hour contest over 2 days, but as a relatively minor fringe activity, we need certain things to generate interest in guys that like powerlifting, strongman, etc. so that our sport grows.

Event selection and contest time are big factors. I thought I could squeeze out a 5-6 hour comp this year, but I think having 20 people is what put me to 8 hours. That gets a little long for people who aren't totally into grip, which is usually 20-50% of my contest any given year. The first year it was closer to 75%!

With events, if you know a bunch of strongman/powerlifting/general strength training guys, throw in some grippers, axle, rolling thunder, plate pinch, etc- Stuff that they can relate to, and maybe add in one style of bending.

[vikingsrule92]

Well, to distract from this argument I want to go back to a semi old post and say I'd absolutely LOVE an all steel bending comp. The Brits do it so why can't we? It would be so awesome, reverse, DU, DO, braced (short, mid, long), etc. Especially since recently bending has WAYYYY eclipsed everything else PUT TOGETHER in popularity. Now, who wants to host it? I'll volunteer if no one else will

[barbe705]

Well, to distract from this argument I want to go back to a semi old post and say I'd absolutely LOVE an all steel bending comp. The Brits do it so why can't we? It would be so awesome, reverse, DU, DO, braced (short, mid, long), etc. Especially since recently bending has WAYYYY eclipsed everything else PUT TOGETHER in popularity. Now, who wants to host it? I'll volunteer if no one else will

part of the reason the brits can get away with it it the size of the country. You live like 2 UK's away from me. and there are people who are even further. That has to be taken into consideration.

[The Natural]

I'd like to see a US Steel Bending Championship incorporating the different styles. That way all energy could be focused on the bending. Bending seems to be eclipsing pinching, thickbar and perhaps even grippers in interest level anyway.

That would be interesting to see.

What I'd also like to see, going in the other direction, is a "Fundamental Hand Strength" championship. Grippers don't correlate well with fundamental hand strength (supporting/pinch), and bending is not so much a test of grip strength as it is a test of other things. So the events for such a contest might look like this:

Axle DL

Euro pinch

2" V-bar (one hand)

Loading medley

Wide pinch block hold for time (both hands)

-Rex

Edited July 11, 2008 by The Natural

[jad]

I'd like to see a US Steel Bending Championship incorporating the different styles. That way all energy could be focused on the bending. Bending seems to be eclipsing pinching, thickbar and perhaps even grippers in interest level anyway.

That would be interesting to see.

What I'd also like to see, going in the other direction, is a "Fundamental Hand Strength" championship. Grippers don't correlate well with fundamental hand strength (supporting/pinch), and bending is not so much a test of grip strength as it is a test of other things. So the events for such a contest might look like this:

Axle DL

Euro pinch

2" V-bar (one hand)

Loading medley

Wide pinch block hold for time (both hands)

-Rex

Sounds like a handsize championship to me

[The Natural]

I'd like to see a US Steel Bending Championship incorporating the different styles. That way all energy could be focused on the bending. Bending seems to be eclipsing pinching, thickbar and perhaps even grippers in interest level anyway.

That would be interesting to see.

What I'd also like to see, going in the other direction, is a "Fundamental Hand Strength" championship. Grippers don't correlate well with fundamental hand strength (supporting/pinch), and bending is not so much a test of grip strength as it is a test of other things. So the events for such a contest might look like this:

Axle DL

Euro pinch

2" V-bar (one hand)

Loading medley

Wide pinch block hold for time (both hands)

-Rex

Sounds like a handsize championship to me

There's nothing inherent in such a contest format that forbids hand size divisions. Furthermore, even if large-handed individuals have an advantage (and they always do regardless of contest format, so this is no complaint specific to this format), there's no reason to think there would be any great correlation between performance and hand size above an 8 inch hand.

-Rex

Edited July 12, 2008 by The Natural

[Bob Lipinski]

Yup Rex, I agree with Josh.

Grippers correlate very well to general grip strength- As well as pinch at least. Some say they don't, but IMO it is the naturally strong long fingered guys who don't train them much. The strongest grip guys are also strong at grippers.

Don't screw with what isn't broken, in my opinion. You leave out grippers and you shelve a huge area of interest. Leaving out gripper and bending from a contest won't give you much interest from grip guys. Also, like Jedd has stated, hand size divisions have been a bust so far- Not much interest or enough competition. I have a little bit of say in the direction the sport is going, and I do not want it to become the ruin that is powerlifting- Too many divisions and champions for one to mean anything. We are lucky in the grip world- The best damn guy is Woodall, and that has been proven. Thanks to Jedd and Smitty! All of the above mess means one thing- Don't try to purposefully fracture a growing sport if you love it.

I am definitely thinking about holding an all-around steel bending championship- MGC 6 was a warmup for me to test the waters. Unfortunately, I'm not gonna do it with my nerve crap going on cause I wanna compete too! I am postponing any of my big (as in national or international) plans till after Horne's Champion of Champions contest. Just ideas in my head as of now, nothing even close to concrete yet.

[The Natural]

Yup Rex, I agree with Josh.

Grippers correlate very well to general grip strength- As well as pinch at least. Some say they don't, but IMO it is the naturally strong long fingered guys who don't train them much. The strongest grip guys are also strong at grippers.

The folks who side with me are at least as knowledgeable as those who disagree, so whatever. Kind of a pointless debate to enter into, as there's not much good quantitative data to settle the matter. As for the strongest grip guys being the strongest at grippers, there are lots of alternative explanations (grippers are fun, the best grip guys compete, and so they want to do well at all the events, grippers are often the first thing people train on when getting into grip, so they get a head start on this, etc etc). If it makes you happier, I could change the name to "Functional Hand Strength" rather than "Fundamental...". This change sort of side-steps the question of whether grippers correlate with fundamental hand strength. (And if the considerations I put forth at the end of this post apply to this debate also, and there really is no such thing as "strong" grip per se, then the change also makes it so that I'm not hoist with my own petard).

Don't screw with what isn't broken, in my opinion. You leave out grippers and you shelve a huge area of interest. Leaving out gripper and bending from a contest won't give you much interest from grip guys.

I don't see this as a big problem, really. This sport is extremely obscure as it is. Shelving a "huge area of interest" in the grip-world means that you lose 5 or so possible participants. It's kind of like telling the kids at a Magic the Gathering event that they won't be able to use certain playing cards at the next event. You lose a few, but you still get enough for a quorum.

Also, like Jedd has stated, hand size divisions have been a bust so far- Not much interest or enough competition.

Cool. Like I said, the format I suggested can go either way on that.

I have a little bit of say in the direction the sport is going, and I do not want it to become the ruin that is powerlifting- Too many divisions and champions for one to mean anything. We are lucky in the grip world- The best damn guy is Woodall, and that has been proven. Thanks to Jedd and Smitty! All of the above mess means one thing- Don't try to purposefully fracture a growing sport if you love it.

As for the possible effect of there being no clearly "strongest" guy, well, that's just reality. When the Arnold Classic introduced its strongman contest, with the intention of taking emphasis off of endurance (which was a major part of the WSM contest) and placing it on brute strength, there was a big question whether the World's Strongest Man was in fact the world's strongest man. Some thought it was now the winner of the Arnold contest that was the world's strongest man. And then some smart folks pointed out that the debate is meaningless--there's no such thing as strong 'per se'. There's only strong relative to some set of events and some set of rules. So if the introduction of new contests (and new winners other than the usual guys) makes the question of who is strongest a bit murkier, we just need to remember that the murkiness may be a fact of reality that is in theory impossible to clear up.

-Rex

[Too Tall]

I'd like to see a US Steel Bending Championship incorporating the different styles. That way all energy could be focused on the bending. Bending seems to be eclipsing pinching, thickbar and perhaps even grippers in interest level anyway.

That would be interesting to see.

What I'd also like to see, going in the other direction, is a "Fundamental Hand Strength" championship. Grippers don't correlate well with fundamental hand strength (supporting/pinch), and bending is not so much a test of grip strength as it is a test of other things. So the events for such a contest might look like this:

Axle DL

Euro pinch

2" V-bar (one hand)

Loading medley

Wide pinch block hold for time (both hands)

-Rex

3 of those events will be at GGC You should compete in one of the last chance qualifiers and come compete It would be great to have you there man

Chad

[jad]

Yup Rex, I agree with Josh.

Grippers correlate very well to general grip strength- As well as pinch at least. Some say they don't, but IMO it is the naturally strong long fingered guys who don't train them much. The strongest grip guys are also strong at grippers.

Right, who seem to be good at handsize dependent events, don't fair as well on grippers, and then claim they don't correlate well.

The folks who side with me are at least as knowledgeable as those who disagree, so whatever. Kind of a pointless debate to enter into, as there's not much good quantitative data to settle the matter. As for the strongest grip guys being the strongest at grippers, there are lots of alternative explanations (grippers are fun, the best grip guys compete, and so they want to do well at all the events, grippers are often the first thing people train on when getting into grip, so they get a head start on this, etc etc). If it makes you happier, I could change the name to "Functional Hand Strength" rather than "Fundamental...". This change sort of side-steps the question of whether grippers correlate with fundamental hand strength. (And if the considerations I put forth at the end of this post apply to this debate also, and there really is no such thing as "strong" grip per se, then the change also makes it so that I'm not hoist with my own petard).

Don't screw with what isn't broken, in my opinion. You leave out grippers and you shelve a huge area of interest. Leaving out gripper and bending from a contest won't give you much interest from grip guys.

I don't see this as a big problem, really. This sport is extremely obscure as it is. Shelving a "huge area of interest" in the grip-world means that you lose 5 or so possible participants. It's kind of like telling the kids at a Magic the Gathering event that they won't be able to use certain playing cards at the next event. You lose a few, but you still get enough for a quorum.

It is obscure so losing 5 competitors in a sport where 20 or less seems to be the average for a contest, is a big deal

Also, like Jedd has stated, hand size divisions have been a bust so far- Not much interest or enough competition.

Cool. Like I said, the format I suggested can go either way on that.

I don't think GGC would have had more people in year's past if they'd eliminated the handsize divisions. I'd rather compete with everbody if the events aren't handsize dependent but that rarely happens. For example, the axle DL, what's the best anybody with a 7.75" hand or less has done....360?? Everytime that event is contested you're pretty much hamstringed for a top placing if your a small hand guy. Same thing with the medleys, throw an inch in there and good luck, you've just given away another event. Who's lifting an inch with 7.75" hands or less? Tommy, Ron Mazza, Odin here shortly. It's not much fun to compete if you'll never be competive at 2/5 events of said contest.

I have a little bit of say in the direction the sport is going, and I do not want it to become the ruin that is powerlifting- Too many divisions and champions for one to mean anything. We are lucky in the grip world- The best damn guy is Woodall, and that has been proven. Thanks to Jedd and Smitty! All of the above mess means one thing- Don't try to purposefully fracture a growing sport if you love it.

As for the possible effect of there being no clearly "strongest" guy, well, that's just reality. When the Arnold Classic introduced its strongman contest, with the intention of taking emphasis off of endurance (which was a major part of the WSM contest) and placing it on brute strength, there was a big question whether the World's Strongest Man was in fact the world's strongest man. Some thought it was now the winner of the Arnold contest that was the world's strongest man. And then some smart folks pointed out that the debate is meaningless--there's no such thing as strong 'per se'. There's only strong relative to some set of events and some set of rules. So if the introduction of new contests (and new winners other than the usual guys) makes the question of who is strongest a bit murkier, we just need to remember that the murkiness may be a fact of reality that is in theory impossible to clear up.

Very true, events make the contest, and depending on what they are, determines most of the placings.

-Rex

[The Natural]

I'd like to see a US Steel Bending Championship incorporating the different styles. That way all energy could be focused on the bending. Bending seems to be eclipsing pinching, thickbar and perhaps even grippers in interest level anyway.

That would be interesting to see.

What I'd also like to see, going in the other direction, is a "Fundamental Hand Strength" championship. Grippers don't correlate well with fundamental hand strength (supporting/pinch), and bending is not so much a test of grip strength as it is a test of other things. So the events for such a contest might look like this:

Axle DL

Euro pinch

2" V-bar (one hand)

Loading medley

Wide pinch block hold for time (both hands)

-Rex

3 of those events will be at GGC You should compete in one of the last chance qualifiers and come compete It would be great to have you there man

Chad

Chad,

I qualified way back in February and sent in my entry form several weeks ago. I've been chomping at the bit since I heard about this contest.

By the way, what part of Georgia are you from? I was born in Columbus and have spent much time in Hot-lanta.

-Rex

[Too Tall]

Chad,

I qualified way back in February and sent in my entry form several weeks ago. I've been chomping at the bit since I heard about this contest.

By the way, what part of Georgia are you from? I was born in Columbus and have spent much time in Hot-lanta.

-Rex

Sorry dude I did not know your last name? Glad to have you competing I am from Athens, GA...Bulldog Country :rock

See you in about 6 weeks

Chad

[The Natural]

Chad,

I qualified way back in February and sent in my entry form several weeks ago. I've been chomping at the bit since I heard about this contest.

By the way, what part of Georgia are you from? I was born in Columbus and have spent much time in Hot-lanta.

-Rex

Sorry dude I did not know your last name? Glad to have you competing I am from Athens, GA...Bulldog Country :rock

See you in about 6 weeks

Chad

War Damn Eagle

Later,

Rex

[Bob Lipinski]

Good discussion Rex, lots of good points.

You would be suprised about the appeal of grippers and/or bending. You mess with the grippers too much and quite a few guys can back out. Many comps still only have 10 guys or so, cut out 5 and you hardly have a competition. I suppose the best thing to do would be to try to hold the comp!

Some people will do better in some events than others, but it looks like the top notch guys are the same people, regardless of the event. No pinch at Beatty's and Jedd+Woodall still top out. Reverse bending instead of hammers might have put Jedd in first, but Thorton would still be pretty damn close.

[jad]

Good discussion Rex, lots of good points.

You would be suprised about the appeal of grippers and/or bending. You mess with the grippers too much and quite a few guys can back out. Many comps still only have 10 guys or so, cut out 5 and you hardly have a competition. I suppose the best thing to do would be to try to hold the comp!

Some people will do better in some events than others, but it looks like the top notch guys are the same people, regardless of the event. No pinch at Beatty's and Jedd+Woodall still top out. Reverse bending instead of hammers might have put Jedd in first, but Thorton would still be pretty damn close.

Actually Aaron was 2nd at Beatty's and Ryan Klein, coming off a dominant peformance at MGC got 5th...due to one event. The pinch medley with the Inches and Kaz rule in effect, ensured Chad and Jedd got their pinch points. Gripmas had some surprise placings due to events. For example, at Nationals this year, if you were to replace axle with RT and change the reverse to a plate curl or DU, I bet that would shake up the top 5. There's definitely a top tier of guys but the events and scoring systems used, play a huge role in determining the top 5. I would agree though that Chad and David Horne seem to be the exception.

[Jedd Johnson]

heavy One hand Duck Walks over 25 metres!

Sounds kind of risky. Any way you can throw in their a live grenade hold for time where the pin's already pulled and we have to pinch it as long as we can and not let it blow up?

[jad]

heavy One hand Duck Walks over 25 metres!

Sounds kind of risky. Any way you can throw in their a live grenade hold for time where the pin's already pulled and we have to pinch it as long as we can and not let it blow up?

That would be Diesel