Inch Vs Rt

[mobsterone]

Correct - baring in mind the initial 300.1 lbs comment refers to a plate loaded dumbbell. But not so confusing I'd hope that the gist of the overall message was missed.

Edited October 21, 2007 by mobsterone

[thearm95]

Yeah Mobsterone I wasn't doubting for a second that a solid globe DB lift is harder lb for lb than ANY other thick handled lift. I never said or implied otherwise. And your thickbar experience and mastery proves that.

But surely there can be absolutely no doubt that if the RT contained quality low-friction lubricated bearings it would be somewhat harder than the RT as we know it.

(I remember when I ordered my RT and the hype was that it was a 'revolving handle' and before getting my RT and trying it I (mistakenly) was expecting it to contain bearings. When I saw that it was just the plastic sleeve over the inner handle I was a little disappointed. Still like it though.)

Mobsterone if we all were to post topics with the imperative of absolute non-reference to any previously discussed topics there would be a lot less if any discussion at all. Notwithstanding meet results, new gripper/steel bar releases etc., pretty much all possible subjects in relation to grippers, RT, thickbar, pinch, bending etc have been discussed more than once already, but it doesn't worry me, I still enjoy getting on the board and discussing grip! Isn't that what it's for?

[mobsterone]

You are debating one aspect of one issue for it's own sake. The topic started out, as per its title, ''Inch Vs Rt'' and someone raised a question as to whether or not 172 on an RT would mean they could do the Inch. I replied, in short, No. Other echoed that. Your point regarding adding some means of lowering the friction of the RT sleeve was meant to infer that if the friction was lowered would that bring 172 on an RT handle closer to the same strength etc required to pull an Inch.

The topic of adding ball bearings et al has been, as I pointed out discussed at some length. Indeed there have been such devices made. All metal handles using brushed stainless steel and with oiled ball bearings exist. I have yet to see a single post ever made by an owner with anything close to a claim that their new, smooth running RT like handle means they can now do wonders on an Inch.

However, you debate the idea of debating... I made two statements which were at the heart of the questions. A rough approximation is below

Question - is 172 on an RT close to meaning you could pick up an Inch?

Reply - no.

Question - why?

reply - weight hangs below so it will never feel the same.

More:

Question - does adding a steel handle and bearings make an RT handle spin more freely?

reply - yes of course but it doesn't make you more likely to pick up an Inch - and that's why it was suggested.

By all means ask the questions but if they've been answered here in this topic and been answered before why bring them up again and again and again? It needs to be new. Debating the right to ask is something else. I gave succinct replies which cut to the quick. You might not like that they cut the debate short but so be it. If you want the right to debate then I get to keep the right to say it's been done before.

Here's a similar handle made from steel: http://www.rb-grip.de/images/Griffe/Einzel...f%20Drehbar.jpg

Here's three more but more in the style of an RT handle and in different sizes: http://www.rb-grip.de/images/ptbars/Rolling%20Thunder.jpg

Edited October 21, 2007 by mobsterone

[Stew]

I would just say that I can do 172 rolling thunder (mine is a new one) & a little more occasionally,I tried the inch a week ago and dont think it even broke from the floor. Seems like a very different lift to me.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Stew

[thearm95]

I didn't even start debating. I just made an observation -

The RT despite having a revolving handle still has plenty of friction between the plastic sleeve and the inner section that prevents free rotation. No doubt if it contained high quality lubricated bearings (like say an Eleiko oly bar) a 172 RT would be a lot closer to an Inch lift.

You said "...but it doesn't make you more likely to pick up an Inch..."

No one has said or implied otherwise. (I did say closer to, certainly not equal to) You are only as strong as you are. Regardless of different levels of friction/lubrication in revolving handles, an Inch is still an Inch and lb for lb will always be harder. We surely agree there.

When a person can manhandle an Inch like you can, 'Inch vs. RT' topics are of little relevance to that person. Why bother reading them in the first place if they annoy you? (there always will be newbies who ask these sorts of questions!)

Another thought - I wonder what thickness a revolving handle would have to be to somewhat (repeat, somewhat!) approximate an Inch. Maybe 3"? But of course, I realise and accept that no other invention or contraption can mimic the inertial dynamics of an Inch. Which makes it still one of the greatest grip feats.

[mobsterone]

thearm95 thy name is pedant! I didn't bother quoting precisely because I knew you'd do so. You need to look at the very quote you used and see what interpretation could be used. To be clear - ''would be a lot closer to an Inch lift'' - is off (IMO) for the many reasons I stated.

I have seen (again here) several threads of a similar ilk wherein RT handles etc are used by some in an attempt to get better with solid Inch-like dumbbells. I have found and have previously recommended using a dumbbell handle or thick handled dumbbell which is then plate loaded to over 40lbs or more than the solid dumbbell you are trying to lift. In the case of an Inch I got to 212lbs on a bell loaded with plates but kept, with collars, as tight as possible so as to mimic the physics of said solid bell. Ditto I was over 270lbs on the same handle when I knew I could do the 228lbs Millennium.

You asked: When a person can manhandle an Inch like you can, 'Inch vs. RT' topics are of little relevance to that person. Why bother reading them in the first place if they annoy you? (there always will be newbies who ask these sorts of questions!) and I had already said in the post before: By all means ask the questions but if they've been answered here in this topic and been answered before why bring them up again and again and again? It needs to be new. Debating the right to ask is something else. I gave succinct replies which cut to the quick. You might not like that they cut the debate short but so be it. If you want the right to debate then I get to keep the right to say it's been done before. As for choosing to call our observations (new word here ha ha) not a debate... come on now.

To use an analogy. Lets say you are a teacher and one day a pupil says 'why is the sky blue'. The first time you sit down and think about it. You go off and learn for yourself, find a good book on the subject and maybe ask around. Now you know. So you can go back and give said pupil their answer. 20 years later having been asked again, and again, and again, you don't flower it up anymore, point them at THE best book, write a reply super quick... you get the idea. My path pretty much follows that one. I had a go at THE original Inch and then, with just three months (might have been 6??) to go before my next crack at it, got a 2.5-inch handle from Pullum Sports. Trained it 1-2 times a week or so and was happy to add 1/2 and even 1/4-kilo increments. Come the next OHF dinner myself and Alan Radley managed 7 or so reps each. We then set the idea of the MDB in motion and it took me 12 months to go from 212lbs to 300.1lbs and from an Inch to a Millennium. Of those that have pulled either I have not seen the RT mentioned. There are, as I have shown, other sizes and variations with bearings in them, yet still not a single mention. Not even by those who are good on the RT (close to WR level for example).

I replied and kept it short and just maybe I'm one of the best to ask (there's a few others than spring to mind but none replied). You had the answer right from the get go and so far no new slant has produced a different view as yet. That will take someone with a new approach. Perhaps it'll be you and a 3-inch think RT handle to show how it can be done differently but first you need to go and give it a go rather than see if these Internet intellectual sparring matches will make either of us feel better but still push us both back to my original short and to the point already given answers.

Edited October 22, 2007 by mobsterone

[nockowt1]

thearm95 thy name is pedant! I didn't bother quoting precisely because I knew you'd do so. You need to look at the very quote you used and see what interpretation could be used. To be clear - ''would be a lot closer to an Inch lift'' - is off (IMO) for the many reasons I stated.

I have seen (again here) several threads of a similar ilk wherein RT handles etc are used by some in an attempt to get better with solid Inch-like dumbbells. I have found and have previously recommended using a dumbbell handle or thick handled dumbbell which is then plate loaded to over 40lbs or more than the solid dumbbell you are trying to lift. In the case of an Inch I got to 212lbs on a bell loaded with plates but kept, with collars, as tight as possible so as to mimic the physics of said solid bell. Ditto I was over 270lbs on the same handle when I knew I could do the 228lbs Millennium.

You asked: When a person can manhandle an Inch like you can, 'Inch vs. RT' topics are of little relevance to that person. Why bother reading them in the first place if they annoy you? (there always will be newbies who ask these sorts of questions!) and I had already said in the post before: By all means ask the questions but if they've been answered here in this topic and been answered before why bring them up again and again and again? It needs to be new. Debating the right to ask is something else. I gave succinct replies which cut to the quick. You might not like that they cut the debate short but so be it. If you want the right to debate then I get to keep the right to say it's been done before. As for choosing to call our observations (new word here ha ha) not a debate... come on now.

To use an analogy. Lets say you are a teacher and one day a pupil says 'why is the sky blue'. The first time you sit down and think about it. You go off and learn for yourself, find a good book on the subject and maybe ask around. Now you know. So you can go back and give said pupil their answer. 20 years later having been asked again, and again, and again, you don't flower it up anymore, point them at THE best book, write a reply super quick... you get the idea. My path pretty much follows that one. I had a go at THE original Inch and then, with just three months (might have been 6??) to go before my next crack at it, got a 2.5-inch handle from Pullum Sports. Trained it 1-2 times a week or so and was happy to add 1/2 and even 1/4-kilo increments. Come the next OHF dinner myself and Alan Radley managed 7 or so reps each. We then set the idea of the MDB in motion and it took me 12 months to go from 212lbs to 300.1lbs and from an Inch to a Millennium. Of those that have pulled either I have not seen the RT mentioned. There are, as I have shown, other sizes and variations with bearings in them, yet still not a single mention. Not even by those who are good on the RT (close to WR level for example).

I replied and kept it short and just maybe I'm one of the best to ask (there's a few others than spring to mind but none replied). You had the answer right from the get go and so far no new slant has produced a different view as yet. That will take someone with a new approach. Perhaps it'll be you and a 3-inch think RT handle to show how it can be done differently but first you need to go and give it a go rather than see if these Internet intellectual sparring matches will make either of us feel better but still push us both back to my original short and to the point already given answers.

This is easily the best post I have read on this message board. I don't think it could have been said any better than this.

[mobsterone]

Cheers.

[Alawadhi]

Sometimes people don't like Steve way of saying things but he ALWAYS says the right thing (as far as I know). I like his way because it's simple and straight to the point.

Edited October 22, 2007 by Alawadhi

[odin]

Sometimes people don't like Steve way of saying things but he ALWAYS says the right thing (as far as I know). I like his way because it's simple and straight to the point.

Yes,I agree. I didn't like it at first, but understand him better now. If someone doesn't like him, or his answer, they can wait for another reply. I'm guessing if someone showed what they'd found when they'd previously tried a search themselves (and why it didn't satisfy them), Steve's answer would be more elaborative. The people who litter the board with new threads asking questions without doing any searching don't usually achieve much (or train much) anyway.

My work on an Inch-related FAQ that I wrote about in my previous post in this thread got derailed by a power outage and computer problems over the weekend. I'll start working on it again in my spare time. if you want the "uncleaned version" emailed to you, just IM me, but if you're good at searching it might be better to do it yourself.

Those of you disagreeing with Mr. Gardener aren't looking hard enough. There was a contest where Clay Edgin's 2.5" metal RT-like handle was used, and two GB Inch-lifters pulled less than 172 pounds.

That being said, the "normal" RT and the Inch have a completely different feel to me, perhaps due to the respective locations of the weight and ROM. The argument may be somewhat of a red herring; but if there is a strongly significant correlation between weight pulled in the RT and Inch-related success, one would need to test using a new handle, etc.

I think Steve's assertion of the 2.5" DB pull being well above the 172 mark in order to fully DL the Inch is more likely to be correct (unless someone uses a dumbbell with knurling or uses big plates and leans their wrist agains them). I have a 3-inch dumbbell and it rolls out of my hand in a similar way when I use 25 lb. plates, but less strongly than the Inch (have ordered 2.5 inch DBs from Fat Bastard). A dumbbell handle's aging also affects the lift less than the RT handle's aging.

The thing that blows me away is that Rick Walker (700 lb. deadlift, great at pinching plates,the Blob, COC) and Tommy Heslep (Superman in my eyes)aren't on the list for a full DL. I saw a pic of Tommy in the gallery from a few years back with a nearly completed lift, but read that Rick sold his Inch about 6 months or so after he bought it after trying all kinds of innovative ways to deload it, strengthen his thumb and wrist, etc. I just think of Rick Walker as being someone who can do anything he sets his mind to, so I hope he can lift it someday if he hasn't already done so.

Edited October 22, 2007 by odin

[thearm95]

Mobsterone I have always accepted what you have said about the Inch – that lifting the Inch cannot be duplicated by any other revolving handle, plate loaded dumbbell or anything else that has been tried. I have yet to actually see an Inch let alone lift one.

Can I ask you guys to please indulge me just once more -

(To expand on my original post)

Let’s say athlete X, a fairly strong Gripboard member who can do a max 210 RT lift.

Then for example, IM then release a new RT handle with a stainless steel handle and lubricated bearings.

Athlete X buys this handle, loads it up and the freer revolving handle only allows him to pull 190 for a 1RM.

Athlete X then trains his grip for the next 12 weeks. After a few days’ rest, he loads the stainless RT handle up to 210 and succeeds in lifting it.

Athlete X is now stronger. He has stronger hands.

Can it now be said that he is closer to the Inch. I know I’ll probably cop another bagging but I’ll stick my neck out again and still say, Yes!

But, you say, in my original post I said A LOT closer, didn’t I.

(if you have read this far, please don’t stop, read on)

The Inch and the RT surely aren’t totally unrelated. Or are they? Guys, if you have lifted an Inch and train on an RT and truly believe that there is NO relation between the Inch and the RT, say so and I’ll shut up and take your word for it.

Back to Athlete X, (a Gripboard member who started more than one stupid repetitive thread):

At the time when he could pull 210 on his standard RT, he went to a meet where there was an Inch, and two other solid globe DBs weighing 150 and 160 (the handles are the same thickness as the Inch handle) He stuffs around on the Inch, and fails (that's what I would do!). He then wobbles up with the 150lber – a max effort. He fails on the 160lber.

12 weeks later after pulling 210 on the stainless handle, he again has the opportunity to try the 160 DB that he missed before. He now makes that lift. Because he is stronger. And he is now closer to the Inch.

(Again I’ll happily admit I’m wrong if it can be said there is absolutely no relation between Inch ability and RT ability)

So my point is, Athlete X will be about 30% closer to being able to lift an Inch, because he is stronger. He can pull 210 on a stainless, bearing loaded revolving handle. He can rip up 210 on his normal RT for some easy reps.

If the above scenario is totally misguided, yeah guys, pull my pants down and spank me again, and I promise I’ll be a good boy and shut up…Altogether now - “Thank God for that!”

Despite Mobsterone’s rudimentary semantics and sledgehammer style I still maintain this has been a worthwhile discussion and worthy of this board.

Yes Mobster you are an elite athlete, have been on the GB for a long time, you are of course, very strong. I along with others are in awe of your ability, but I still think you should lighten up a bit sometimes. Just the way I see it. But if that’s your style, fair enough, and others here obviously appreciate that too. So in that case, I’m sorry if I annoy you (but I doubt that - I think, like myself, you’ve really enjoyed these exchanges )

(Disclaimer: I am not Athlete X.)

[superfeemiman]

Yes Mobster you are an elite athlete, have been on the GB for a long time, you are of course, very strong. I along with others are in awe of your ability, but I still think you should lighten up a bit sometimes. Just the way I see it. But if that’s your style, fair enough, and others here obviously appreciate that too. So in that case, I’m sorry if I annoy you (but I doubt that - I think, like myself, you’ve really enjoyed these exchanges )

Short, to the point, no b.s. replies tend to spawn debate. That's the reason I usually avoid them unless I know it's something that most likely will not spawn debate (unless I want that) or I'm trying to annoy someone . Nothing wrong with using them, of course, but you should never be surprised when someone wants to debate or expand on a certain point related to it. That's the nature of short replies like that.

[thearm95]

Note: in reference to my second last paragraph my apologies in advance. On reflection it may not be appropriate in this forum, or to Mr. Gardener. I leave it in because it's been there for an hour or so, and for Mobster to have not seen it whilst others have read it would of course not be fair to him. It should be noted that I respect him, generally respect what he has to say, and have learnt a lot about grip from him.

I just don't agree with the style/tone of some the replies he makes. But of course it doesn't matter in the end. We're all different and that's what makes things interesting.

Edited October 23, 2007 by thearm95

[PowerHouse]

In my opinion getting stronger with any other think handle device is only going to get you closer to lifting the inch. Might not be the most effective way but it would get you there eventually. I don't see how it wouldn't.

[thearm95]

In my opinion getting stronger with any other think handle device is only going to get you closer to lifting the inch. Might not be the most effective way but it would get you there eventually. I don't see how it wouldn't.

Powerhouse, bend over mate!

But hey get in line there, I'm first :upsidedwn

[rbrown]

IMO the correlation on the Inch and the RT depends on the technique that you use and surface finish on the RT handle used. If it is a new RT it will be slick and the pounds lifted on it will be signficantly less than if it is worn.

If you use a technique on RT like I use, the fact that it rolls is not significant because I just pick it up from the position that it will want to roll to--i.e. palm directly over the handle. The rolling is only to prevent peopel from trying to cup it. If you don't try to do that the rolling aspect (even if there were ball bearings is made irrelevant).

The reason the inch is much harder is the same reason that a db farmers walk is much harder than a traditional farmers walk--on the RT the weight being lifted is below the handle entirely. On the Inch the weight is all around the handle--resulting in the weight trying to twist out of your hand.

I would estimate that most will find the 220 lb figure to be about right on RT before they can lift the Inch, but it will vary.

Ryan, are you saying that you are basically "pinching" the Inch?

Would this style be the best one for someone with an exceptionally strong thumb? Or is it simply a good balance between fingertip and thumb strength, with less wrist emphasis? I remember Clay writing something in another forum about pushing hard with the thumb, and matching the pressure with the other fingers.

Sorry for the delay. I'm not in a regular habit of checking this board lately.

Not really pinching it; more just supporting it. My hands are not huge, but large enough to wrap my hand basically all the way around the handle or close to it. So yes it is sort of the position you would take on a pinch, but because my fingers and thumb wrap around the handle they are able to support it rather than just pinch it. my pinch grip is actually not that great--I have not been able to pinch 2 45s. Rather than fight the roll I just pick it up with my hand directly above it. It is a good balance of thumb and fingers I guess.

I do farmers the same way. I hold the handles in my fingers more and push my thumb hard against my index finger to hold them on the handle tight.

Edited October 25, 2007 by rbrown

[rbrown]

Yeah Mobsterone I wasn't doubting for a second that a solid globe DB lift is harder lb for lb than ANY other thick handled lift. I never said or implied otherwise. And your thickbar experience and mastery proves that.

But surely there can be absolutely no doubt that if the RT contained quality low-friction lubricated bearings it would be somewhat harder than the RT as we know it.

(I remember when I ordered my RT and the hype was that it was a 'revolving handle' and before getting my RT and trying it I (mistakenly) was expecting it to contain bearings. When I saw that it was just the plastic sleeve over the inner handle I was a little disappointed. Still like it though.)

Mobsterone if we all were to post topics with the imperative of absolute non-reference to any previously discussed topics there would be a lot less if any discussion at all. Notwithstanding meet results, new gripper/steel bar releases etc., pretty much all possible subjects in relation to grippers, RT, thickbar, pinch, bending etc have been discussed more than once already, but it doesn't worry me, I still enjoy getting on the board and discussing grip! Isn't that what it's for?

Moberstone is right on here.

As I have described above, IMO the rolling part of the rolling thunder basically just prevents you from using particular techniques very effectively. If it did not revolve you could cup it much more easily and lift a lot more weight on it. I could and have via experimenting by making one of my RT handles not roll. The rolling aspect of the RT has very little impact though if you just pick it up from the position that it will want to roll to in the first place. With this technique the rolling aspect of the RT is almost entirely neuralized.

What does matter greatly is the surface of the handle. New handles are very slick. Old handles are often much stickier with the finish worn off of them. I also have a metal handle that is even better grip because of chalk, etc. Chalk on a brand new RT is almost a hinderance.

As Moberstrone said, the Inch is completely different than the RT. But if you use the technique I have stated above (I use the same on Inch and RT) then I think there is some comparison. About 173 = 220 or so. That extra 40 something lbs is my estimate of how much impact the rotational effect of the inch has. It really probably has an even greater impact that this though because the Inch actually has an easier gripping surface--cast metal than the plastic of the RT. On a RT with the same surface as the Inch I have lifted about 280 lbs. It is much easier than a new ironmind RT because of the surface friction on the handle. It is hard for me to say exactly what the correlation is because the Inch was not close to a max lift for me when I did the 280 on the RT handle. I could basically high pull the inch for about 5 reps.

Edited October 25, 2007 by rbrown

[odin]

Thanks for your reply Ryan.

How long did you train to lift the Inch? I did a search and found you didn't budge it the first time you tried it and got it a couple inches the 2nd time (both attempts were after a strongman comp. I believe). Do you have any other anecdotes about your experiences with it, how you progressed (did you improve a small amount at a time or in "bursts")?

I also read in my search that you were attempting it 3x a week in training for a while before you did your other grip. Any other training tips you have would be appreciated. Thanks in advance in case I don't read your reply right away.

Edited October 25, 2007 by odin

[rbrown]

Thanks for your reply Ryan.

How long did you train to lift the Inch? I did a search and found you didn't budge it the first time you tried it and got it a couple inches the 2nd time (both attempts were after a strongman comp. I believe). Do you have any other anecdotes about your experiences with it, how you progressed (did you improve a small amount at a time or in "bursts")?

I also read in my search that you were attempting it 3x a week in training for a while before you did your other grip. Any other training tips you have would be appreciated. Thanks in advance in case I don't read your reply right away.

yeah the first time I tried the inch was back in 2002 and I thought I would get it easily because I was pretty good at RT and assumed they would be very similar. When I tried to pick it up it just wanted to roll on me. I honestly thought it was some sort of gimic or something.

I just steadily increased my strength over time with strongman training, etc. In 2004 Chad Woodall gave me an inch to work with and as soon as I got it I was able to lift it fairly easily. But working with it routinely I became stronger on it. For a while there I was playing with it most workouts.

My progress was probably fairly steady, but because the inch is the kind of thing you only get to test every once in a while (unless you happen to have regular access to one) it will appear as if it is in bursts.

I don't really have an secret methods or anything; just really steady work for about 5 years. I think you can improve your grip doing almost anything. When we got this really big tire I was flipping it for reps all the time and my forearms would get smoked from it because I basically would hold my hands tight to lift it. I noticed the correlation once when I did RT before tire once and I could barely grab the tire. It was odd.

Edited October 25, 2007 by rbrown

[odin]

Thanks Ryan, I think it's fascinating to read about people's progress on the Inch.

Weren't you thinking about trying the double Inch FW?

[rbrown]

Thanks Ryan, I think it's fascinating to read about people's progress on the Inch.

Weren't you thinking about trying the double Inch FW?

yes, I wanted to do the double inch farmers walk. Unfortunately I never encountered two of them at the same time. I was thinking I would be pretty decent at it though as I was able to hold the inch in the farmers position in each hand for over 20 seconds, and I did some farmers with the inch and a 95 hex db I have. I may have put a video of it on here at one point.

One advantage I have on things that require left and right hand is that I am left handed and my hands are close to equal in strength--many right handed people tend to be right hand dominant.

I currently have no idea where I would be on the inch. I lost a lot of weight. I was competing as a hw strongman at around 290 lbs. Now I'm back to 238 lbs or so. My hands are actually a little leaner though so any stength loss may be offset by the less thick hand/fingers? Not sure. I'm now training as a lw pretty hard though so I'll probably try it if and when I ever see two Inch DBs together.

Edited October 26, 2007 by rbrown

[lifesnotfair]

Holding the Inch for that long with both hands!! What a beast!

[mobsterone]

It's good. We had a few 'see who can hold the baby Inch (53-kilos) the longest' comps here and I was told (they lied) that one of the others had got 40+ seconds. So I did a minute and change and after was told the second best was 27 seconds.