Elite Level Contest Proposal

[David Horne]

It's not confusing.

Simple, the Champion of Champions is a contest I started back in 2005, for the top 3's in all comps. This is no different, as in 2009, the comp will still be open to all these athletes of all countries.

The British Grip Champs has always been an 'Open' contest, just like they have in golf and tennis, and other sports.

David

[Matt Brouse]

Wes, I agree in that a Personal Record (to me anyway) is more valuable than a world record. It just so happens that I want my Personal Records to be World Records.

I'm starting the SNBHSA. The Shaved, Not Bald Hand Strength Association. We will have strict requirements for membership and only members can compete.

The rest of you can go have fun at the salon.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Matt Brouse

[The Mac]

I can't see how limiting British records to BHSA members is going to limit to expansion of the sport - that is afterall what they are recognising, records set by BHSA members. It would theoretically be easy to keep a set of "All-Comer's" records, set in British comps by non-British athletes.

[RKlein]

"To me a record is the absolute best the best person is capable of doing. The fact "it wasn't in competition" is irrelevant, the weight was still lifted."

WRONG! Wes have you competed yet in any strength sport? No offense Wes but some guys can do big numbers in the gym and end up doing much less in a comp. i could go on and on about this.

David, i would make everyone pay. just as in any other strength sport you have to pay your member dues to compete.

[mobsterone]

Wes, I agree in that a Personal Record (to me anyway) is more valuable than a world record. It just so happens that I want my Personal Records to be World Records.

I'm starting the SNBHSA. The Shaved, Not Bald Hand Strength Association. We will have strict requirements for membership and only members can compete.

The rest of you can go have fun at the salon.

I'm a member most of the time - but I want a 'and must have goatee' section

[RKlein]

okay i will do one example. at last year's Cali. contest people were claiming Odd was doing 550 to 600 lb. double overhand on the axle. i'm not saying these claims are not true but at the contest he ended up doing 454 and missing 500 twice. it is different when you have competition, you are not using your own equipment, and you have to do a couple of events prior.

[mobsterone]

okay i will do one example. at last year's Cali. contest people were claiming Odd was doing 550 to 600 lb. double overhand on the axle. i'm not saying these claims are not true but at the contest he ended up doing 454 and missing 500 twice. it is different when you have competition, you are not using your own equipment, and you have to do a couple of events prior.

Fine example. I did a mad 171+ kilo V-Bar in a non all round event and a hell of a lot less at the next.

[The Mac]

Well, this is strength sports, we all know people who bench pressed 800lbs in their garage.

If it isn't done in competiton, where there is at least an established set of rules and (hopefully) unbiased judging, then it shouldn't count as a record. It was different in the past, when Grip Comps were few and far between, but going forward this should no longer be the case.

[David Horne]

Chris,

I'm checking the All-comer's records of athletics tonight - already chatted with Steve today about that. As you said a British Record is just that a record by someone british! I can't understand how some folks are getting confused with this. If you have an American record in a sport, surely only americans can better it!

Ryan,

You are totally right. As I've said before I've lifted and competed in many strength organizations, and your subs was just part of it. I think what it is, is there are many grip guys who are not from a strength/weightlifting/etc background so have no idea how official organisations work. I say to them go and check how these organisations work.

The thing is nobody is being forced to join, and also we are giving the promotors big help/freedom in running any of their shows. The fact is this is for British folks, but others from other countries can join.

David

[David Horne]

I've just checked with British Athletics and they operate UK All-Comers Records.

These are performances set anywhere within Great Britain and Northern Ireland by athletes of any Nationality.

This will do us fine for our foreign members who compete at our contests.

David

[The Mac]

I like this idea very much!

[climber511]

If you understand it - then it's simple. If you don't understand it, then it's complicated.

Let's give them a break here guys - it's in the beginning stages right now and while I think David and Steve understand where they want to go with all this, we all don't - YET. Of course there will be questions and growing pains all along the way - rule changes are fairly common even in long established strength sports like Olympic Lifting and PL. Ask questions - there will be things forgotten and outside ideas are good - but support the concept - it's long overdue.

[David Horne]

Foreign Members

Our foreign members of the BHSA who were not born in the UK, and/or do not hold a British Passport, will still be able to compete in BHSA competitions (as most are 'Open' contests similar to tennis/golf anyway), and also break any All-Comers records if they do. But they cannot break any actual British Records as they are not British. This is the same as UK athletics.

A UK All-Comers record, is a record set at any BHSA event anywhere within Great Britain and Northern Ireland by athletes of any Nationality.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Malachi,

If you compete in a BHSA sanctioned comp you have to be a member. So there will be no non BHSA member winning a comp in a BHSA sanctioned event.

David

Ah, makes sense then. Guess I probably could've read that somewhere

[Matt Brouse]

Wes, I agree in that a Personal Record (to me anyway) is more valuable than a world record. It just so happens that I want my Personal Records to be World Records.

I'm starting the SNBHSA. The Shaved, Not Bald Hand Strength Association. We will have strict requirements for membership and only members can compete.

The rest of you can go have fun at the salon.

I'm a member most of the time - but I want a 'and must have goatee' section

I've always considered that more of a powerlifting rule, but...sounds good.

[Wes]

"To me a record is the absolute best the best person is capable of doing. The fact "it wasn't in competition" is irrelevant, the weight was still lifted."

WRONG! Wes have you competed yet in any strength sport? No offense Wes but some guys can do big numbers in the gym and end up doing much less in a comp. i could go on and on about this.

David, i would make everyone pay. just as in any other strength sport you have to pay your member dues to compete.

Ryan, I am definitely well aware that contests aren't generally condusive to performing to the best of your ability. Hence, my opinion that lifts not performed in contest are still valid to me because I want to see the best an athlete can give me. If it's in contest, great. If not, that's fine too. I'm not saying garage lifts should be on all the official record lists, but rather on a different "master" list.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Wes

[twig]

I'm the reverse, I always do better when I'm "showing off" i.e. performing in front of someone else (anyone sniggering, get your minds out of the gutter!).

I don't understand what part of a BRITISH Record people aren't getting.

[climber511]

"To me a record is the absolute best the best person is capable of doing. The fact "it wasn't in competition" is irrelevant, the weight was still lifted."

WRONG! Wes have you competed yet in any strength sport? No offense Wes but some guys can do big numbers in the gym and end up doing much less in a comp. i could go on and on about this.

David, i would make everyone pay. just as in any other strength sport you have to pay your member dues to compete.

Ryan, I am definitely well aware that contests aren't generally condusive to performing to the best of your ability. Hence, my opinion that lifts not performed in contest are still valid to me because I want to see the best an athlete can give me. If it's in contest, great. If not, that's fine too. I'm not saying garage lifts should be on all the official record lists, but rather on a different "master" list.

Wes - I'm going to have to disagree here. We've all seen the "it's all you" bench press where the spotters lift more than the lifter. Gym lifts will "always" be just gym lifts for that reason - and many others. Sure it's interesting to talk about what we have done on those special days when the stars are all lined up just right for us, the friction is perfect that day etc etc. It's only within the pressures, rules, time frames etc of competition does it really count. Certified plates alone can change what was lifted by quite a bit. It's easy to be the best in your gym, or garage, or high school whatever but only in a real competition can I compare my self to some guy in Russia or California and know we did the same exact lift under the same rules. Not that one of us lifted it one way and one another. Everyone is not honest and I'm not even going to go into some other things here but competition is where it's at if you want the respect of those people who take the game seriously. Even pictures and video doesn't mean much. Impossible to see a little tacky on the finger tips for example and a million other ways to take advantage.

[nickr104]

okay i will do one example. at last year's Cali. contest people were claiming Odd was doing 550 to 600 lb. double overhand on the axle. i'm not saying these claims are not true but at the contest he ended up doing 454 and missing 500 twice. it is different when you have competition, you are not using your own equipment, and you have to do a couple of events prior.

The Factor of different equipment and having lots of max lifts in one day I think makes all the difference. I have set lots of PRs in my gym some of them are stuff on the gripboard record list. When I do that stuff my hands are fresh, it's my stuff that I am used to lifting on, and on that day everything was just right to make that lift happen. Comps are very different. Last year at the bbb for example I pick up our blobs almost every time i touch them , but I get there and do that dang scale weight hold and I go from picking up the blob when I want to only gettign the 42.5 I never do well at comps. Maybe it is just me, but the way my body works I can't make some of these things happen when ever I want day in day out. Some days I am on some days I am off. I like the idea of the best of the best going head to head. I guess I don't think about it much because I am not the best of the best in this sport.

[jad]

[...] "unofficial" records [...}]

I like them.

Me too.

For example, Ryan and Aaron are the only people listed above me on the American records list for unbraced freestyle bending. I personally watched Ben MELT a 6.5" Edgin in his garage (he was/is injured hence the reason he didn't at MGC). I'm sure there are numerous others that can bend a sub 7" Edgin so do I really think that Ryan and Aaron are the only two benders out there that are better than me....

David: Thanks for clearing up the British record thing, it makes more sense now with the all-comers record.

[wscorpion]

[...] "unofficial" records [...}]

I like them.

Me too.

For example, Ryan and Aaron are the only people listed above me on the American records list for unbraced freestyle bending. I personally watched Ben MELT a 6.5" Edgin in his garage (he was/is injured hence the reason he didn't at MGC). I'm sure there are numerous others that can bend a sub 7" Edgin so do I really think that Ryan and Aaron are the only two benders out there that are better than me....

David: Thanks for clearing up the British record thing, it makes more sense now with the all-comers record.

I agree,

There's probably always someone out there who is better then you are in a specific movement. But if that person never competed in any sort of contest, would that make you best?

I can understand the practical decision of contest records, but it's not the real record most of the times.

If (like in the bhsa) you have the ability to go for a record on a single event then it makes things more honest, but if you can only set records during a contest which has several events, then you cannot expect to give it all you got.

If that specific event is the first in the contest you will be fresh BUT you will also keep in mind you will need to spare strength for the rest of the events. If that event is later on in the contest, you've probably already lost the freshness and so the ability to give it all you got.

That's also (IMO at least) the biggest disadvantage of associations, they all have their record lists, but who is going to join them together so that the actual record list is created?

a 100kg 2HP hold for time would be nice as an event as well I guess

[David Horne]

To take athletics as an example, there is probably a faster 100 metres done in practice somewhere, or a higher jump. But these are not the world recs. The world recs are the ones done under the governing bodies rules.

Why would this sport be any different?

Mark,

A 100k pinch hold would only be of any good if all the competitors could lift that! It really wouldn't be a good event for most contests.

[The Mac]

You know, I don't see a whole lot of people sniffing at Asafa Powell's 9.74 seconds and saying "well, it's not REALLY the fastest time ever run, is it".

Most of the athletes I have ever known go out of their way to talk about their PB's in terms of Competition bests, they all know that running fast or jumping/throwing big in training is just indicative of good form that they hope to capitsalise on "on the day" in competition.

[Bob Lipinski]

Grip is going to be different for the immediate future because competition isn't as popular, and in fact there is sorta a thing of avoiding competition among a few of the "names" cause it would ruin their rep as a showman, guru, or whatever.

It is slowly changing though. The mindset will change slowly but surely. The Europeans as a whole are ahead of the Americans in this regard.

It is very easy to be the best in one event in your garage on the day you are ready. It is a completely different story to show up on a preplanned day and still nail a great lift.

[wscorpion]

David,

since we're talking about a competition of the best of the best most of them should be able to hold it IMO, take yourself and the others who are all close (or over) 110kg, 100kg would be nice to separate the men from the boys (I'm still a boy in that case )

@Mac & David, I understand what you mean, it's the same as in any sports, but I also feel the same way with the other sports. If you have a bad day on competition day and someone weaker then you has a good day, he might beat you and have the record while you're the strongest in average day life.

Granted, eventually the stronger one will beat the weaker one in more contests (provided they both enters more contests) but still.

It's not completely fair for the weaker one to say he's the strongest since the record is only a record of a very specific time and day.

Besides the fact that you will have more events in contest and more pressure, the biggest chance to break a record will be at your own gym since you will be there much more often then you will be on a contest.

In my case for example, I felt stronger on the Champion of Steel contest then I do normally and I'm pretty sure I could have beaten my PR's there with both DO bending and long bar bending (23"-8"), but I had the same problem as well. I should save strength for the other events.

Of course anyone has those disadvantages in a contest but don't we all want the biggest lifts recorded instead of the biggest lift under very specific circumstances?

One competitor might choose to give it all in an event to break the record, another one might choose to save strength for the rest of the contest. But perhaps the one that decides to save strength would have set a better record if he would have given it all at that event.

To get the most honest records in my opinion would be to do the same as with the certifications. Let's say I want to give a go at the vbar lift WR, I would prefer to arrange an official judge and equipment on a specific day only for me to beat that record. No other contest for me in the way of getting the best out of it so I could concentrate fully on the record.

If this option would be available for everyone within a specific association then you would have much better records IMO.

Of course you can still have an off day that day, but you could always try again on another day instead of having to wait months or so until the next contest comes.

From what I understood from the bhsa this option will be available in some way, so that's great, but more associations should do that!

On a side note, I'm going to join the bhsa because I believe it will definitely be worth it, so for those who might have thought I'm attacking the bhsa, I'm not. I'm just expressing my vision on the organization of sports in general