World Class Or Elite Bending

[GatorGrip]

I agree with Mike & Ben on this issue regarding bend certifications. I think if things start getting to technical or in other words make this fun part of our strength sport into one more hassle of our life then you will lose some that could be considered high level Benders or elite Gripsters in their own right. There are those that will never certify on anything yet be able to bend or grip at a seriously elite level and there are those out there that could waste their time and efforts and the whole community's by trying to stage a bend or I guess even a gripper close for a cert. The common sense rule says that neither are very likely so before a bend needs to notarized, witnessed by a priest or other clergy, filmed by a low budget movie film crew and have NASA to calibrate each batch of steel coming from Area 51 those in a position to make certain changes in the process need to take a step back and really look at this with a logical point of view before changes are made that will eventually hurt the sport rather than help. I am not sure who the supposed cheater(s) are but maybe it would be better to deal with those suspects than do a mass judgment call that takes the fun out of certification. Let's face it we don't do this for the big paycheck or sponsorship we do it for fun, comradely and sheer bragging rights for showing off our determination and giving ourselves something to shoot for as a challenge or goal.

[acorn]

I agree with Mike and If I had to pay shipping fees on one or 2 pieces of steel every time I wanted to cert on something, I think I would not be doing certs very often if ever. I would be prowling the Home depot or something instead looking for less expensive things to destroy.

- Aaron

[John Beatty]

If I have to take it that far, you won't have to buy 1 or two pieces of steel. Buy what you want, I'll be dropping a few into individual envelopes with a seal on them. You can open that package for the vid. I'm not trying to make things crazy, but there's too much BS going on. The extra work will be on me, with extra packing. Because I have PLENTY of free time.

[Scott Styles]

Seems kinda pointless to send the bars out one at a time. If someone was really motivated to cheat, they could steam open a seal, anneal the bar, reseal it, then open and bend it on video.

Keep it fun and simple at the lower levels at least. Who cares if someone decides they want to cheat at the bastard level?

[gazza]

Seems kinda pointless to send the bars out one at a time. If someone was really motivated to cheat, they could steam open a seal, anneal the bar, reseal it, then open and bend it on video.

Scott now we are talking bro lets all start annealing 1/2" stuff and up after all it is the biggest bar bent that wins aint it

Annealing steel aint as easy as you think bro it aint just a matter of heating up the bar and away you go.

Why bother with annealing stuff when you can just get the right stock as eric has listed there is a massive difference in the king of all bars 100lbs thats alot in my book i shure wouldnt want to compare myself to someone if they bent a bar that is 100lbs harder than mine but i guesse we will never know.

[acorn]

It seems to me from what I remember of machining that Cold roll steel is basically already in an annealed state. So someone silly enough to try that on 1018 would getting limited return if any for their endevour. Most stainless and Drill rod are also sold in the annealed state too.

- Aaron

Edited February 2, 2007 by acorn

[Scott Styles]

My point is that adding barriers to certification doesn't make sense. Certing is something that is done for personal satisfaction and a way to demonstrate where your training is currently at. With a cert like this, where the object you cert on is destroyed in the process of completing the cert, someone can always find a way to cheat. If that promotes the best in the world to go even further with their training, so be it.

When it comes down to it, the only thing that definitively proves where people rank is performance on the same day at the same contest. The guys who claim to be at the top have opportunity to prove themselves in this situation. If they want the recognition, they'll show up and do it. I know I personally am going to look to the guys that are actively competing as the best. I don't care what someone does in their basement if they aren't willing to come out and put it on the line. Until then, it's just a training lift.

[supersqueeze]

All this lip service aside, what ever happened to Gazza's huge stainless bend (7" X 3/8")? Biggest bend ever, whole thing caught on film, witness ... Seems the doubters and the whiners have kept this bend from the books.

[gazza]

All this lip service aside, what ever happened to Gazza's huge stainless bend (7" X 3/8")? Biggest bend ever, whole thing caught on film, witness ... Seems the doubters and the whiners have kept this bend from the books.

The Stainless used was not Fbbc stock or has been calibrated by eric milfeld.

There is some of it on its way to eric as we speak cut from the same bar so we will soon see where it lies.

[bencrush]

All this lip service aside, what ever happened to Gazza's huge stainless bend (7" X 3/8")? Biggest bend ever, whole thing caught on film, witness ... Seems the doubters and the whiners have kept this bend from the books.

The Stainless used was not Fbbc stock or has been calibrated by eric milfeld.

There is some of it on its way to eric as we speak cut from the same bar so we will soon see where it lies.

I'm not a calibrator of course, but I have some of the 5/16" Stainless and Stainless Hex that Gazza has bent. And fellas it is right on with the FBBC stock. Of course FBBC doesn't have the Stainless Hex yet but I assure you it's quite a bit harder than the normal Stainless. So for it to be 3/8" Stainless is incredible. I can't imagine the pressure it would take to kink that, much less FINISH it!

[gazza]

My point is that adding barriers to certification doesn't make sense. Certing is something that is done for personal satisfaction and a way to demonstrate where your training is currently at. With a cert like this, where the object you cert on is destroyed in the process of completing the cert, someone can always find a way to cheat. If that promotes the best in the world to go even further with their training, so be it.

When it comes down to it, the only thing that definitively proves where people rank is performance on the same day at the same contest. The guys who claim to be at the top have opportunity to prove themselves in this situation. If they want the recognition, they'll show up and do it. I know I personally am going to look to the guys that are actively competing as the best. I don't care what someone does in their basement if they aren't willing to come out and put it on the line. Until then, it's just a training lift.

Not so performance on the same day can still be hit or miss depends on if the stock has been batch tested.

An example someone decides to go for a mother of all bastards so john or whoever give them a bar from the batch that tested out at 735lbs the other get bars from another batch say the 600plus batch so said person with the 735lbs bar is already up against it and could loose because of that.

Example 2:one person gets a mother of all bastard bars from the 600plus batch everyone else gets a bar from the 735lbs batch the one with the 600plus lbs bar wins on the day.

As you can see there are know gaurantees this is what i am getting at there are times when people come out of the woodwork and just stir the shit because of jealousy like with my recent bends thats how i see it anyway

So when i go ok then lets try and make it perfect so there are no doubts some people still dont like that either but rest assured if certain people continue to give me a hard time over my bends when i busted my balls on some of those bends even injured myself doing them then i will make it my business to discredit those people every chance i get and will keep on pionting out to people just like certain others have said they will get tough if they dont stop then i to will get tough and demand equal rights for other peoples bends just like mine eg full video wrapped witness etc etc.

If people and sponsors are happy with the rules as they are thats fine by me but dont expect meto be expected to be different hell you dont have to like me but at least give me abit of credit for trying to advance are hobby/sport and help motivate some people hell some of you in particular cannot even be arsed congratulateing me on a decent bend when youse go outa your way to congratulate others for less talk about clicks if you dont like me just tell me but dont put down my accomplishments as i worked as hard as anyone for them

[supersqueeze]

Thanks, Gazza, for the speedy explanation about the stainless bend's "in limbo" status. I appologize to the doubters, the whiners ...?

[Scott Styles]

To be clear, I am not questioning the validity of your bends. You've put it on the line in competition in the past, and I expect you will in the future. To me, that coupled with video proof of your achievements is more than enough.

For the doubters, I don't think complicating the cert process will do anything to help convince them over the internet. From a purely selfish perspective, I want John's time spent getting the different size Inch dumbells cast, not sending out one off pieces of steel.

[Tim71]

I will say I've never seen or heard of anyone's claimed bends on this board that made me suspicious. Like someone said, we're not competing for a paycheck.

As for Gazza's bends my only problem is that my chin is hanging on the keyboard in disbelief. And to think that one year earlier his best bend was a G9 bolt. Now that's a jump. I wished I'd have a 12 month jump like that.

Tim

[gazza]

Once you go and see the Holle brothers bend and you then get the right stock you have 2 chioces either quite every time you feel the pain of a HARD bend or get your HEAD right and start useing the PAIN and Anger as your Allies

I spent 2 years wasteing time with not haveing the right stock,i was content to just use english 60ds and sometimes the odd piece of steel from a warehouse this was good and bad good because i was buying 25kilo boxes of nails roughly 500 60d nails per box i was doing a box a month at 1st then it became a box a week which was getting costly cause i only had a low paid job a wife and 3 kids i think this as well as manual labour jobs most of my life set a good foundation and helped develope my hands for the further pain to come.I received 1 unbent grade 8 and 1 unbent grade 5 plus some US 60ds as well as alot of bent stuff thanks PAT.I soon got the grade 5 and later injured my wrist and forearm trying to reverse bend the g8 bolt at that time only John Brookfield,Gavin Holle and Pat had bent the RED nail Pat being the 1st to do it on video.Stupidly i had another go at the g8 a few days later i am stubborn like that and further injured myself.A g8 bolt at that time was an Elite bend Clay and Big Steve were 2 of only a few that had bent this but they were not yet doing REDS so it shows how much we have all come on the fact that i had put a good kink in a g8 despite me getting injured gave me alot of confidense in my own abilities as it was an Elite bend so i new i was getting there.

I spent a long time getting over my injured wrist i think only useing the one side in Reverse all the time was not helping.Whilst injured i went and visited the Holle Brothers at Chris James,s house and i had taken some of david hornes competition bars in a sealed envelope and a video camera to record these bends i also took a red i got off pat and other stuff i got off people.The Holle brothers were happy to bend the stuff in front of myself and big chris but not on video as they said they had gotten alot of crap from the gboard so i respected there wishes and they got down to bending.Gavin,Craig and Jay Holle all used the DO style and made the bends look easy i was amazed at how easy they made the DO style look and to actually witness this in person was a big eye opener for me it showed the mind set i needed to get to the bigger steel.

A week after i went to big chris james,s house and met with the Holle brothers i went to david hornes to cert him and jim wylie on davids cert bars whilst there david asked me about the cert bars i took to the Holles i told him that they did not want it on video and i respected there wishes Davids words were then we will never know will we.This comment has annoyed me to this day and is part of why i am constantly bringing things about fraud and mistrust etc up i feel that in certain peoples eyes that unless myself or my friends go to Davids and do things infront of him then we wont be trusted like the above comment made after i came back from visiting the Holles,yet i am good enough to help sponsor comps etc my caracter seams good enough then yet my word aint thats how i see it anyway.David has had numerous stuff witnessed by his wife and friends,Eric Milfeld has some of his bends witnessed by his wife,Pat has his friends etc etc yet me an my friends dont seam to be good enough.

Respect is a 2 way street i have given lots of respect to people here on the board i have travelled to comps to video and support them i have donated prises etc yet i still get shit.

I dont expect any favoratism from anyone i want my bending to speak for itself but i do expect a little respect for busting my but and going outa my way to help others and if other people are getting RESPECT for useing there spouces as witnesses,not supplying videos etc etc i expect the same for me and my buddies.

Not being funny here just vioceing my opinion as i see it if John wants to go the whole hog and make it so that we get stuff sent to a witness that is not a friend,wife etc and do it all via video as well unwrap etc etc thats fine by me but i will expect everyone to to be held to the same standards no ifs or buts and i will ask for those bends that havnt met these conditions be looked on as done differently.Why should anyone be given praise for something that is done under different conditions.

RANT over back to the post

I feel that going and witnessing in person the Holles bending then later on again witnessing great bending by Franky and Big Steve when they came over for the Champion of Champions contest.I new then i had to get the right stock and work harder no excuses.

My mate Maxwell then picked up 3 fbbc benders bags and extra stock whilst holidaying in the US and once i got access to this i was on a mission to be the best i can be.

Sean once said its only PAIN and TIME your right bro

To sum it up for me its all about Training on the right stock plus dealing with the PAIN Plenty of ISOS on the harder bars helps here and a good bit of Aggression.

Seya all on the bending BATTLEFIELD

[John Beatty]

Not being funny here just vioceing my opinion as i see it if John wants to go the whole hog and make it so that we get stuff sent to a witness that is not a friend,wife etc and do it all via video as well unwrap etc etc thats fine by me but i will expect everyone to to be held to the same standards no ifs or buts and i will ask for those bends that havnt met these conditions be looked on as done differently.Why should anyone be given praise for something that is done under different conditions.

Gazza-

This is the reason this crap is giving me a headache. The implication that I give special treatment or would. I've never questioned anyone, I praise when I have time for the extra emails. I don't congratulate everyone, I simply don't have time. I'm sending a KOAB to Eric from the same 10 bars I sent Pat. We'll know where it stands. If you want to cert on the KOASB, send me $10 & I'll send you some as soon as I can cut them.

To all-

As to the extra stuff for the high level bends, Screw it. I'd like to see it all from the package opening to completion, as that just makes the most sense, but whatever. The certs will stay as they are in every way. I'm tired of all this. I cannot believe a bunch of adult men can go on & on about all this little nit picking BS.

As to calibrating every single batch. Do it for curiosity, but all it's doing is bringing certs into issue. Steel frigging varies. I buy from the same source, the same type of steel, every time. But given the nature of things, one batch will be tougher than others. I had a Bastard bar that I couldn't get past a 15 degree warp about 2 weeks after I bent the Mag, just a tough piece (and probably a bit of fatigue after the show), but you get my point. I bend because I like to see what I can do. I'm fairly well up there, I plan to go higher (if I ever have time to bend again). I don't care about where I stand or if I'm number 1. I do things to see what I can do. I come here to share accomplishments & talk to friends. (and make announcements for the company... )

[Bearcat 74]

I don't bend and actually care nothing about it, but I have read this entire thread. There seems to be two complaints, one is Gazza's word isn't enough and that you are pissed about having to go to David's place and attempt some bars? If that's the case it seems just another way to prove to everyone that you are at the top, that is exactly the way the MM ladder used to be, you had to have a witness and David is sure a credible one. The MM stuff comes sealed now so it is much more difficult to cheat. If it's about proving to everyone that you are the real deal then it would be easy enough to do, go to David's place. When I first closed the 3 I was given hell as a fraud, cheat, etc. My word was not good enough, I replied and argued with Bill through email and then I went through the steps to prove them wrong. I was not dramatic about it, I did not complain about it I just certified and tried to close every gripper I could get my hands on.

The next complaint or rant is about comparing to other people on bar stock, and the difference in lbs to bend bar to bar. There is no way to compare other than with a label, Huge Shiney Bastard or whatever, bar varies by sometimes the foot, no way you bend one and straighten it to see if the next guy can do it, again different than the MM stuff, you have one gripper, the same gripper that goes out to everyone. Other than 7x3/8" or 3x5/16" I don't see how it can ever be compared lbs to lbs. It is no different than the MM replicas vs the MM grippers, I have an MM3 replica that is nothing compared to the MM3, steel varies.

Gazza have you been bending FBBC stock or stock that you have picked up somewhere else?

[Bill Piche]

I cannot believe a bunch of adult men can go on & on about all this little nit picking BS.

I can.

I can feel your pain brother.

Thanks for all you do with the certs!

Bill

[gazza]

I don't bend and actually care nothing about it, but I have read this entire thread. There seems to be two complaints, one is Gazza's word isn't enough and that you are pissed about having to go to David's place and attempt some bars? If that's the case it seems just another way to prove to everyone that you are at the top, that is exactly the way the MM ladder used to be, you had to have a witness and David is sure a credible one. The MM stuff comes sealed now so it is much more difficult to cheat. If it's about proving to everyone that you are the real deal then it would be easy enough to do, go to David's place. When I first closed the 3 I was given hell as a fraud, cheat, etc. My word was not good enough, I replied and argued with Bill through email and then I went through the steps to prove them wrong. I was not dramatic about it, I did not complain about it I just certified and tried to close every gripper I could get my hands on.

The next complaint or rant is about comparing to other people on bar stock, and the difference in lbs to bend bar to bar. There is no way to compare other than with a label, Huge Shiney Bastard or whatever, bar varies by sometimes the foot, no way you bend one and straighten it to see if the next guy can do it, again different than the MM stuff, you have one gripper, the same gripper that goes out to everyone. Other than 7x3/8" or 3x5/16" I don't see how it can ever be compared lbs to lbs. It is no different than the MM replicas vs the MM grippers, I have an MM3 replica that is nothing compared to the MM3, steel varies.

Gazza have you been bending FBBC stock or stock that you have picked up somewhere else?

Heath

Its all a matter of principles with me i go to Davids after visiting the Holles and Chris James,s and what i saw was dismissed because i did not MAKE the Holles bend infront of a video now i am being asked by people to go and cert infront of David as he is a credible witness so that says to me that my friends Maximus and Mike are not credible

No disrespect intended but if i bend infront of my wife will that be more credible i am not saying that Elizabeth or Erics wives are dishonest but do you get were i am comeing from.

Pat and others have and do bend infront of there friends infact some of the bends pat has put out have just been infront of his video camera in his basement with no witness.Dont get me wrong pat has knocked out some awesome some infront of witnesses some infront of friends some without the same as me and others this is my whole piont and the question at the beginning were do we draw the line and when is proof good enough or not good enough or should it now be it depends on the individual

As regards the bar stock i now a think or to about steel like yourself with the grippers so i now abit about what i speak of yes steel varies from batch to batch even sometimes on the same length.

Eric has calibrated some 7"x 3/8" sock fbbc and there is a 100lbs difference in some of it thats a huge difference my point here is thats fine if the batch that tested 100lbs more is labelled so if its not and just put on a shelf with the other batch that tested 100lbs less then how can you compare yourself if you dont know what you got

I have bent fbbc stock supplied to me by my friend maxwell who got it from the US whilst on holiday i have also gotten fbbc stock off of Franky,Big Stevve and others i also get stock locally and when i bend something i make reference to that stock i would never bend something that was not fbbc stock and claim it was and vise versa.

I have stock thats fbbc equivalent and also stuff thats harder than fbbc stuff when i send out stock to people i always tell them what it is so there are no missunderstandings.

[maximus1]

If it's about proving to everyone that you are the real deal then it would be easy enough to do, go to David's place.

Its all well and good saying just go to Davids place,David lives 1 1/2 hours drive away from me and Gary and Gary dont drive,or its a 3 hr train journey,just for 1 cert,i am more than happy to drive him but due to our busy lives its not always possible for me or Gary to be availble at the same time,and whos to say that if we do go,by the time we get there the moment to bend to full power may have passed,you just never know!

Were as now im like 4mins away from Gary and he can call me anytime he feels like bending something big and i will be round to witness it,saying he has to go to Davids makes me feel like my credibility is being questioned!

[gamidon]

I actually read this thread. I am wondering one thing, who cares? I mean really, all this is about making someone else belive you did something. There are always doubters, ignore them. Your friends believe you and your enemies don't. No certification or otherwise will change that. A lot of this has more to do with chasing lists, it really isn't worth it. When it comes to bending and phone book tearing when you get good at it and you post stuff your take a lot of heat. This is all about jealousy and vanity, not about bending steel.

Most of this arguing takes away from the fun we could be having. Bend the steel, tell people, show them, or don't it is up to you. Ignore the doubters. If you don't realize by now that some people will always doubt you, then you never will.

As for John Beatty playing favorites, I highly doubt it. Having met John twice at his contests I can tell you one thing about him, he absolutely loves this stuff. Not the bitching and argueing, he loves the busting ass and getting PRs. I can't tell who he was more happy about, his PRs he got, or watching the PRs of others. To think he would turn down a cert for favoritism or accept a bad one is almost laughable.

Greg

[gazza]

Not being funny here just vioceing my opinion as i see it if John wants to go the whole hog and make it so that we get stuff sent to a witness that is not a friend,wife etc and do it all via video as well unwrap etc etc thats fine by me but i will expect everyone to to be held to the same standards no ifs or buts and i will ask for those bends that havnt met these conditions be looked on as done differently.Why should anyone be given praise for something that is done under different conditions.

Gazza-

This is the reason this crap is giving me a headache. The implication that I give special treatment or would. I've never questioned anyone, I praise when I have time for the extra emails. I don't congratulate everyone, I simply don't have time. I'm sending a KOAB to Eric from the same 10 bars I sent Pat. We'll know where it stands. If you want to cert on the KOASB, send me $10 & I'll send you some as soon as I can cut them.

To all-

As to the extra stuff for the high level bends, Screw it. I'd like to see it all from the package opening to completion, as that just makes the most sense, but whatever. The certs will stay as they are in every way. I'm tired of all this. I cannot believe a bunch of adult men can go on & on about all this little nit picking BS.

As to calibrating every single batch. Do it for curiosity, but all it's doing is bringing certs into issue. Steel frigging varies. I buy from the same source, the same type of steel, every time. But given the nature of things, one batch will be tougher than others. I had a Bastard bar that I couldn't get past a 15 degree warp about 2 weeks after I bent the Mag, just a tough piece (and probably a bit of fatigue after the show), but you get my point. I bend because I like to see what I can do. I'm fairly well up there, I plan to go higher (if I ever have time to bend again). I don't care about where I stand or if I'm number 1. I do things to see what I can do. I come here to share accomplishments & talk to friends. (and make announcements for the company... )

John

Glad you find it all crap i thought this forum was a place were we could discuss bending shure its about issues but bending issues none the less is it not better aired and then sorted

Its amazing how 2 mods and a sponsor can all respond to a post within 20mins of one another yet none of the above can offer a single word of encouragement or congratulations on my resent bends i dont mean anything by this just an observation ive made

John dont change the certs on my behalf as i am already sean as the bad guy and this will only make people hate me even more Oh well i suppose i can live with that.

I thought we were meant to be advancing this sport/hobby and who was it that said no smoke and mirrors etc you still have not shown the rest of us video proof of the mag shiny and king of all bends why the mystery and no show when the same person who done those bends comes out with the fraise no smoke and mirrors do you see were i am comeing from even the insane bend video is not a proper video in my eyes,does not show the bar being measured and only shows half the bend so if the rest of us show half a video of a world class bend from now on will that beproof enough there is no excuse for not showing a video in its entirety unless someones got something to hide.

Your company,your cert process you have viewed the above videos i though as you put in your words above we are meant to share bends etc with like minded people here on this forum but to me its surrounded in mystery why all the smoke and mirrors over these bends there are no excuses enough people on this and other forums have asked to see these videos in there entirety so i will ask when are we going to see them

I and others have no problems showing are videos in all there glory for this forum to scrutinise like i am being now so lets have equal standards for everyone no exceptions

[gamidon]

Gazza,

I am confused?????

Did you bend a 3/8" FBBC bar and not get credit for it?

Greg

[Tim71]

Gazza,

Your 4 3/4 inch shiny made the list so just do the same thing on the 3/8". If you've got some on the way to calibrate then I'd say that will do the trick although I'm not into the rules since I'm not a threat to the top benders yet. However, as I understand it, if Eric calibrates it and it calibrates higher than Pat's bend won't that put you at the top of the 2006 list along with the 7 inch 2007?

Take John up on his offer. I've priced stainless steel and man that seems cheap quite honestly. There again, I haven't ordered any because I have no use for it at the moment.

Another option Gary, bend a big G8 or G9. Those have all tested pretty equal and that would be recognizable on cammera. I've never seen reference that anyone else has done it so that would be a good one.

I will say this, some threads I reply to with a congratulations some I don't. The decided factor is usually if it's 8:00 oclock in the evening or past midnight and I've got to go to work the next day. Nothing sinister.

I've not seen Pat's KOAB bend but anyone who's seen the odd-object... video has seen him do some pretty tough looking 3/8 CRS that in his own words admits that it felt about 10% easier than John's stock. Pat's obviously a top-notch bender as it probably took him less than a minute I'd say so he's probably got more left. Do I know without a shadow of a doubt that it was a legitimate bend? No. I choose to believe it and just enjoy watching it. Same with your bends. I don't care about your witness setup or whether or not it's 100% foolproof, I just enjoyed the heck out of that 3/8 stainless and hope you put out some more. Heck I wished I could bend that. I'd do it all I could and wouldn't care who believed me.

Go get another great bend and blow us away!

Tim

[Bearcat 74]

Its amazing how 2 mods and a sponsor can all respond to a post within 20mins of one another yet none of the above can offer a single word of encouragement or congratulations on my resent bends i dont mean anything by this just an observation ive made

Since you are making reference to me as a mod I can tell you I haven't even watched your videos. Your posts are full of bitching, just an observation I made. I love encouragment, giving and recieving but the daily posts of pot stirring associated with bending is rediculous. This is as bad as everyone having to pick sides when everything was going on with the Wood's and the rest of the world. You want everyone on your side and against Pat and vise versa. At one time you were all up at arms to travel across the world to show your strength and now you are bitching about driving 2hrs to show it off?

Have you tried to cert on FBBC stock??