Science

[rying]

A muscle can't generate as much tension at high speed, and more tension = more force. Often when I would try to "explode" (in a misguided effort to take advantage of the momentum), whether it's a big DL, gripper, phonebook, or whatever, the plan backfires--the muscle loses tension right at the start and the lift fails. There's something to be said for "grinding" through the lift to maximize tension, and thus, the amount of force you can generate.

A #3 closer can close the #1 faster than a #2 closer because he is stronger. Doesn't mean that training to close the #1 as fast as possible will get you to the #3!

Physics doesn't lie, but you have to take physiology into account to make the most of it. Your max will always move slowly because it is your max! Velocity and acceleration are always minimal. So you just need to find a way to generate that 401 lbs of force long enough to keep that 400 lb PR barely moving, and the above method (maximize tension -- and get strong enough in the first place!) is the way to do it.

[Teemu I]

Who said anything about laying on your back. Although explain why working the same pressing muscles matters whether you are lying sideways or upside down for that matter. Do the front delts magically get "better developed" by doing a standing push press versus doing a seated press in a rack for example?

I'd say olympic lifting and all the related exercises are best ways to develop strength together with coordination, which is essential for balanced development. They offer really good carryover to any sport, which can not be said about seated pressing for example.

[honk]

OK so here's my question about closing grippers. When they say ferinstance it takes 200lb to close a gripper, where on the handle is the that applied? 200lb applied in the center of the handles will not have the same effect as 200 lbs at the ends. After all this is a torsion spring and its closing should be rated in units of torque ie foot pounds or inch pounds. Doesnt seem to make sense to rate a gripper's closing in units of force.

That's why Robert Baraban rates his grippers in inch pounds.

Ironmind rates them in pounds because most people don't use units of force on a regular basis. The pond #s given by Ironmind are "accurate" under the assumption that the force is applied in the center of the handle.

Edited May 17, 2006 by honk

[MeatPlow]

Bill,

I agree that doing strict seated presses will work the delts more directly through a slightly more isolated move. While Push Presses or Jerks hit the delts hard enough as it is, but they involve coordination of the entire body while teaching hip extension in an explosive manner. This simply mimics alot of sports.

I also agree that squats and pulls will build the core strength sufficiently, and combined with explosive Olympic Lifts gives the lifter a complete package. I think most Olympic Lifters do squats and pulls to supplement their Olympic Lifts.

TK,

You said that Louie hates the Olympic lifts, I don't think this is exactly accurate. I spoke with Louie for 45 minutes or so about the Olympic lifts and he was very enthusiastic about doing the lifts with his twist applied to them which sounded very good to me. I don't think hates them as much as you think.

[4lbhammer]

Thanks, Honk!

[Teemu I]

Bill,

I agree that doing strict seated presses will work the delts more directly through a slightly more isolated move. While Push Presses or Jerks hit the delts hard enough as it is, but they involve coordination of the entire body while teaching hip extension in an explosive manner. This simply mimics alot of sports.

Exactly what I'm thinking and tried to say, only you said it better

[Eli72]

Bill

Yep seated presses isolate your delts and you're right in most sports you isolate certain muscles and there are many sports that involve sitting and pressing...

since you're rooted in PL do you train w/shits, wraps, suits... That should really translate to a sport specific program

You just can't get through to some people...

No you didn't say anything about HIT but the shirt I got from closing the mashmonster, which is the gripboard correct?, had in huge letters H.I.T. and from your attitude I have a feeling you're a HIT guy....

so stay seated or lay down and lift do high reps and do every set to failure and don't forget to isolate every muscle don't forget to wrap your knees real tight and all those wonderfull things that come with PL, that may make you a better athlete...but doubt it...I maybe wrong cause after all you are the "Super Administrator"

[MeatPlow]

Bill,

How does slow lifts equate to better performances in sports? Since, obviously you don't feel Olympic Lifts do. We all know that you have to practice whatever sport you are doing to sharpen your skills, but you have two styles of training your body to supplement your sport, why would you choose one or the other?

[4lbhammer]

Surely exlosive lifting gives the best strength for body wt - otherwise why would Olympic lifters do it?

[thorfinn]

Surely exlosive lifting gives the best strength for body wt - otherwise why would Olympic lifters do it?

Oly lifters do c&j and snatches because they get paid to excel at that. When they retire many (not most nor all) just do squats, presses and/or bb type lifting.

I'm about to get flamed here...

I think explosive eccentrics is what develops speed strength/strength speed.

Might explain why oly lifts, plyos work so well. Remember many of the best oly lifters use the bounce very well (read fast eccentrics). The full versions of oly lifts has a lot of eccentrics but, the power versions are usually somewhat reduced (could be wrong though). Also the bounce should be used gradually with weight. Good to start weak and learn these techniques with low weight than to start strong and get impatient and start using higher weights too soon. perhaps... Still higher risk for injury than slow lifting. Going to failure is also a risk for injury. Life is risk.

The best oly lifters and those that are good at them (throw in track and field here too) are usually naturally inclined to be awesome at displaying power. I do agree with Eli in that lifting slow and for high reps all the time is not usually in the best interest for those that participate in power sports.

Just my 2 cents. I am willing to see every side of speed and strength and I am not oppossed to changing my mind either. Just from observation, readings and expirience.

-Keith

[MeatPlow]

Keith,

I agree with alot you said. Thats why I said most lifters squat and pull, but not all snatch and clean and jerk properly. The explosive extension of the hips, knees and ankles are what most are looking for in the carry over department, and what better way to learn in a coordinated manner with the olympic lifts.

[Bill Piche]

How does slow lifts equate to better performances in sports? Since, obviously you don't feel Olympic Lifts do.

Here we go again. People putting words in my mouth. Eli is doing it jumping off the dock making conclusions based on a T-shirt of all things and my statement that I competed in powerlifting and now this statement.

Get stronger in the weight room. In whatever progressive overload exercises you choose. Then, go take that increased strength and practice the skills of your sport.

[Eli72]

I think the back peddeling your doing now will burn up your quads

[rying]

Olympic-style lifts work and strengthen alot of muscles in a coordinated fashion. They don't carryover directly to the skill of performing in any sport other than oly weightlifting.

Squats, presses, and DL's work and strengthen alot of muscles in a coordinated fashion. They don't carryover directly to the skill of performing in any sport other than PL.

Many people, probably the majority, cannot safely and productively do the explosive lifts. If someone told me to pick the one very best lift to work everything, I'd say the C&J...damn how impressive it is and I wish I could train it...but I can't. So for the "average man" I am stuck with recommending... the DL for example.

I think that at least kind-of illustrates some of what Bill was trying to say, and I'm sure we disagree on alot.

[Teemu I]

Olympic-style lifts work and strengthen alot of muscles in a coordinated fashion. They don't carryover directly to the skill of performing in any sport other than oly weightlifting.

You are right, not directly, but they build a better foundation for many sports. Any resistance exercise provides only the base, where to build on. It's just that some exercises translate into usable form more quickly than others.

Let's take shot put as an example: I bet that push press is far more productive for that than seated military presses. There's hardly any reasonable arguments against that.

As I started weight training to gain strength for hockey, I did loads of C & J and explosive squats. They were the foundation of my training. I got great carryover from that, my shooting for example got significantly better. As soon as I started doing slower, grinding type of movements, such as seated shoulder presses and bench presses, my shooting really got worse. I wasn't able to shoot that puck as hard as before, allthough I thought I was stronger in many ways. I was, of course, but the strength wasn't the type of strength I needed.

My point is, that strength gained with slow lifts alone isn't your best bet, if your chosen sport requires another kind of abilities.

All resistance training should be planned accordingly to meet the requirements of your chosen sport and training has to be based on athletes abilities and weaknesses and good understanding of specifity. It's not about what is good and what is not, it depends on loads of variables.

This topic is difficult to discuss here, as there simply isn't enough time to cover all the aspects of effective strength training. Supertraining by Mel Siff pretty much covers this subject. It's a must read for everybody interested in coaching or improving your own training.

One more fact: you should never think strength and skill as two separate things. That is unfortunately a common belief.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Teemu I

[Jim Bryan]

I started out as an Olympic Lifter. When Power Lifts were organized I competed in that also. Along the way I also competed in Body Building and very early Strong Man. I say this only to let you know I've done it. The Internet allows one to come to conclusions that are sometimes stretching things. Strength Training is what makes you better at the Sport you do. There are no "Magic carryovers" from any particular style or method of Strength Training. The fact that you are getting stronger and are involved with training your sport is why you do better at it. There is NO WAY you can look at ANY athletic team or individual and tell which method they use. UNLESS they want you to know, and are probably selling you their secrets. Its OK to have your favorite ways of training but no one can say that any one method or system is "best" for any sport. No matter if it comes from "behind the Iron Curtain" or from someone whose name you can't pronounce. Or even the latest Internet Guru. (who may or may not even workout) Strength Training is the key. The way you do it is the way YOU do it. I have seen a bunch of experts come and go.

[Teemu I]

Talking about "magic carryovers", I did not say anything like that. It's just that some methods are better for developing desirable abilities than others. As I said: It's not about what is good and what is not, it depends on loads of variables. Some methods work better than others under given circumstances. It depends on your chosen sport.

As for me, it isn't about favorite methods and it shouldn't be to anybody. It's just about choosing as objectively as possible the most effective methods for chosen purposes. Choosing the methods does matter.

You can't just simplify things to a point that all that matters is to get stronger. There are different kinds of strength and they must be trained differently.

And yes, you can draw some conclusions about person's training just by watching him in action outside the weight room. My profession beeing a physical therapist, I'm trained to see and draw conclusions about person just by watching. Physical performance and appearance tells more than you would think. No, I can't exactly pinpoint their methods, but can say what seems to wrong in their performance and what could be done to fix that.

[MeatPlow]

I agree with you Teemu.

[Teemu I]

I appreciate it.

[Jim Bryan]

Teemu, My post was not directed to you or at you. I've been involved with training for over 45 years with teams and individuals. This type of discussion/argument comes up endlessly on the internet. Look at any discussion board about training and you'll find it. The truth is that athletes and teams go on and win without any of us knowing what they do, unless they want you to know.

[Teemu I]

OK, I got carried away there. No offence intended from my part. Besides, I agree with you somewhat, especially with that last comment, allthough I present some views from another angle. What I'm trying to say is just that it isn't all that black & white. I'm allways willing to hear arguments from another angle, no matter what the topic of discussion is. I have a broad mind and allthough I have some preferences, I'm allways willing to learn more.

I'm aware, that this topic is one of those where discussion never ends. But discussion where people still behave like gentlemen is good, I think.

I truly respect your experience, I'll tell you that. I'll ask you though, do you really think that it doesn't matter, what kind of methods you choose for your strength training?

I'll still put my name under everything I've said about sport specific training.

[Jim Bryan]

Teemu, the truth is that we are more alike than different. Strength training works.

[Teemu I]

Ok, thanks for your views.