Saw This On A Different Board

[Mikael Siversson]

Mikael,

It seems that the idea of people bending with what ever they feel comfortable has ruffled a few feathers so I am trying to ascertain what Dave believes is "excessive".

Well this is what I use. Not very tidy I am afraid.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1001403937.jpg&s=x12

[gamidon]

Mikael,

It seems that the idea of people bending with what ever they feel comfortable has ruffled a few feathers so I am trying to ascertain what Dave believes is "excessive".

Well this is what I use. Not very tidy I am afraid.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1001403937.jpg&s=x12

Mikael,

That is one ugly rag What a see is something that most people would agree may in fact be dangerous. Please be careful it only takes one bar to go through and you may regret your descision to use those rags. You could get much the same level of wrap with a whole lot more security with cordura. Cut some to any size you feel comfortable with. This would seem to be a much safer option.

As for pad thickness, a lot of what people believe is untrue. More padding makes it harder to bend as it acts as a shock absorber. There is a balance of comfort level for most people between 5/8" and 1" wraps around a red nail. Going below 3/4" increases pain felt but I have yet to see a loss in capability. The crush down which is the point most people fail at is much easier on a bare bar than with a 1" wrap. It is just a function of pain tolerance and hand adaptation. As I have bent my wraps get smaller. I cut off the parts that get torn up and the wrap shrinks. I have yet to have a performance degredation and only notice the bar in the pad more and more as I cut.

Please be cautios with your rags Mikael and please do not reccomend those for new benders as the danger outweighs any other reason to use them.

[Mikael Siversson]

Please be cautios with your rags Mikael and please do not reccomend those for new benders as the danger outweighs any other reason to use them.

They are quite safe to use if you bend reverse style. I have never poked a hole in my palm, but then again I don't bend very tough nails with the 60 degrees kinks I am doing for the Oz championship in February. Doing it DO would be a bit dangerous, yes.

[Scott Styles]

From what you are saying Mikael, you do not use those pads to crush the nail down? Just to get the 60 degree kink? If so, I'd think they're safe to use reverse style too. The crush down is probably the point where for safety you'd want to switch over to cordura. The pads I'm using to learn double underhand are a shop cloth cut in half and trimmed down, but I'm switching cordura because I don't want to get stabbed in the hand during the crush down.

I would expect the amount of padding someone needs to protect the hands to increase as the strength of the nail goes up.

[Mikael Siversson]

From what you are saying Mikael, you do not use those pads to crush the nail down? Just to get the 60 degree kink? If so, I'd think they're safe to use reverse style too. The crush down is probably the point where for safety you'd want to switch over to cordura. The pads I'm using to learn double underhand are a shop cloth cut in half and trimmed down, but I'm switching cordura because I don't want to get stabbed in the hand during the crush down.

I would expect the amount of padding someone needs to protect the hands to increase as the strength of the nail goes up.

When I do a full bend I just double fold that rag.

[Soilworker]

If someone were to cut a single Ironmind blue pad in half, and use each half as a pad for the nail, would that be considered a good enough bend if the person bend a Red nail DU using these cut down pads?

[Mikael Siversson]

Please be cautios with your rags Mikael and please do not reccomend those for new benders as the danger outweighs any other reason to use them.

Well here they are being used to wrap a 5 1/2'' 8mm HRS (stock used at the 2005 European). Did not quite get it to 60 degrees (51 degrees). Not my usual training music in the background. Almost more talking than bending in that video.

Takes a couple of minutes to download even with broadband (20Mb).

http://media.putfile.com/5-12-8mm-HRS-failed-kink-51-degrees

[smp76]

Mikael,

It seems that the idea of people bending with what ever they feel comfortable has ruffled a few feathers so I am trying to ascertain what Dave believes is "excessive".

Well this is what I use. Not very tidy I am afraid.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1001403937.jpg&s=x12

I agree with Greg on the idea of being careful with those rags man. It reminds me of an impromtue bend I did in a t-shirt once and I have never made that mistake again because of it.

I did just watched your video it took a while to load, but it was impressive. I am still a little leary about those wraprs though man.

-Sean

[Scott Styles]

When I do a full bend I just double fold that rag.

Why expose your hands to that unnecessary risk? Nails clearly damage your pad, we can see all the rips. Won't you lose a lot of training time if you get stabbed in the hand when a pad bursts?

[terminator]

First off, let me say I don't speak for Dave, and he doesn't speak for me. Dave is a former professional athlete, and an extremely qualified trainer. It's interesting why his advice to a new trainer on another board made it's way over here, but here it is. In my opinion his advice was sound, if you want to get strong over the long haul, concentrate on getting the most out of the exercise, rather than focusing on getting a certain bar bent whatever way possible to get on a list or ego or something.

The much maligned "DO with leather" can be an extremely difficult and taxing way to bend steel. I don't believe excessive padding alone is the problem unless combined with wide hand positioning. I believe Dave's comment on "hands together" is a relative term, correct me if I'm wrong Dave. I believe there is a reasonable and unreasonable amount of hand spacing, about 1-1.5" between the first knuckle out from the palm is reasonable....3, 4, 5 inches and greater is unreasonable on a 7" bar. Every little bit you move out decreases the poundage to bend the bar....one needs only to compare the calibration numbers David Horne achieved with a Red Nail and hands close together (270K if I'm not mistaken) and the numbers Eric achieved by testing 3/4" in from the ends of the bar to see a difference (around 400lbs.). I have tested this theory more times than I care to talk about....at the end of many a bending session when fatigue has stopped a final bend a quick widening of the hands, even less than half an inch and the bar generally collapses in a ridiculously easy manner. I've tried some super hard bars beginning with a very wide grip and they are far easier, but I do not consider this type of bending within the spirit of a good bend. When the hands are fully off the bar and perpendicular to it in what has been termed a "pistol grip" the poundage is at it's lowest level and wrist involvement is virtually nil. My intent is not to discredit or put anyone down, just stating facts that get lost somewhere in all the enthusiasm. Clay and I have been around the block a few times on this, and after all was said and done (with tons of mutual respect BTW) Clay seems to admit that the wide grip makes it much easier to kink or bend (correct me if I'm wrong Clay, and sorry to drag you into this) and many bends would not get past the initial kink to the crushdown were it not for the wider grip. If competition allows anything goes then so be it, but don't discount the differences.

Arguments have been made comparing the wider grip to "gear" or "partials vs. full-range". Here's my take on that. Gear would be akin to wrapping ones elbows before a bend, the bar would still require the same poundage to bend. A "partial" would be like kinking a bar, or finshing off a pre-kinked bar......still strength of the bar hasn't changed. The wide grip actually lowers the poundage to bend, now if powerlifting gear actually makes the bar weigh less on a scale that's news to me.

Since Greg and others have brought my name into this, here's my reply. I know I am very heavily scrutinized (Greg admits to looking at 25-30 pictures of mine) and I supposedly do just what Dave is criticizing. Well that's enlightening, even though most pictures people talk about are at the end of very taxing feats and shows and combined with all manner of weights hanging from my head or in my lap I still see about 1.5" max between my first knuckles...and sure the thumbs open up a bit to get a little more favorable wrist alignment but the fulcrum stays with the lower fingers. If people can look at these pictures and say I'm doing the same thing as the other DO practitioners (with the exception of Dave Morton who uses perfect style whenever I've seen him) then I say some optometrist appointments are necessary. I would compare styles with Greg, but there are no pictures of him bending anywhere......please don't offer scrutiny you are unwilling to have directed upon yourself, and don't bitch when people correctly indicate that there are differences in difficulty about different decks of cards either. You have said to provide video that demonstrates this clean style, check my 5.5 and 5" FBBC videos as they are good examples and compare them to yours...wait, where are yours?

I'm gonna allow Bill to run the first part of my 4.5" FBBC bend until the point where I fall over because I have promised that and I think folks will get a kick out of it but I don't want him to post the whole 12 minutes for everyone to scrutinize my hairstyle or whatever..... Respect is a two-way street. I will provide John Beatty a copy of the full 12 minutes of video, because he was good enough to send me bars to bend and he's a darn nice guy to boot! I'll also send him the exact wraps I used for this first part of the bend, and the bar, and he can then visualize what kind of pain and damage I've done to myself (John was nice enough to say he would send me back the bar, I appreciate it).

BTW, if Dave thinks I'm a clown....hey I'll either take that as a compliment or constructive criticism from a serious athlete. Heck, Dave's a freakin clown!

[smp76]

Interesting and well thought out reply Pat.

-Sean

[joeyg]

First off, let me say I don't speak for Dave, and he doesn't speak for me. Dave is a former professional athlete, and an extremely qualified trainer. It's interesting why his advice to a new trainer on another board made it's way over here, but here it is. In my opinion his advice was sound, if you want to get strong over the long haul, concentrate on getting the most out of the exercise, rather than focusing on getting a certain bar bent whatever way possible to get on a list or ego or something.

The much maligned "DO with leather" can be an extremely difficult and taxing way to bend steel. I don't believe excessive padding alone is the problem unless combined with wide hand positioning. I believe Dave's comment on "hands together" is a relative term, correct me if I'm wrong Dave. I believe there is a reasonable and unreasonable amount of hand spacing, about 1-1.5" between the first knuckle out from the palm is reasonable....3, 4, 5 inches and greater is unreasonable on a 7" bar. Every little bit you move out decreases the poundage to bend the bar....one needs only to compare the calibration numbers David Horne achieved with a Red Nail and hands close together (270K if I'm not mistaken) and the numbers Eric achieved by testing 3/4" in from the ends of the bar to see a difference (around 400lbs.). I have tested this theory more times than I care to talk about....at the end of many a bending session when fatigue has stopped a final bend a quick widening of the hands, even less than half an inch and the bar generally collapses in a ridiculously easy manner. I've tried some super hard bars beginning with a very wide grip and they are far easier, but I do not consider this type of bending within the spirit of a good bend. When the hands are fully off the bar and perpendicular to it in what has been termed a "pistol grip" the poundage is at it's lowest level and wrist involvement is virtually nil. My intent is not to discredit or put anyone down, just stating facts that get lost somewhere in all the enthusiasm. Clay and I have been around the block a few times on this, and after all was said and done (with tons of mutual respect BTW) Clay seems to admit that the wide grip makes it much easier to kink or bend (correct me if I'm wrong Clay, and sorry to drag you into this) and many bends would not get past the initial kink to the crushdown were it not for the wider grip. If competition allows anything goes then so be it, but don't discount the differences.

Arguments have been made comparing the wider grip to "gear" or "partials vs. full-range". Here's my take on that. Gear would be akin to wrapping ones elbows before a bend, the bar would still require the same poundage to bend. A "partial" would be like kinking a bar, or finshing off a pre-kinked bar......still strength of the bar hasn't changed. The wide grip actually lowers the poundage to bend, now if powerlifting gear actually makes the bar weigh less on a scale that's news to me.

Since Greg and others have brought my name into this, here's my reply. I know I am very heavily scrutinized (Greg admits to looking at 25-30 pictures of mine) and I supposedly do just what Dave is criticizing. Well that's enlightening, even though most pictures people talk about are at the end of very taxing feats and shows and combined with all manner of weights hanging from my head or in my lap I still see about 1.5" max between my first knuckles...and sure the thumbs open up a bit to get a little more favorable wrist alignment but the fulcrum stays with the lower fingers. If people can look at these pictures and say I'm doing the same thing as the other DO practitioners (with the exception of Dave Morton who uses perfect style whenever I've seen him) then I say some optometrist appointments are necessary. I would compare styles with Greg, but there are no pictures of him bending anywhere......please don't offer scrutiny you are unwilling to have directed upon yourself, and don't bitch when people correctly indicate that there are differences in difficulty about different decks of cards either. You have said to provide video that demonstrates this clean style, check my 5.5 and 5" FBBC videos as they are good examples and compare them to yours...wait, where are yours?

I'm gonna allow Bill to run the first part of my 4.5" FBBC bend until the point where I fall over because I have promised that and I think folks will get a kick out of it but I don't want him to post the whole 12 minutes for everyone to scrutinize my hairstyle or whatever..... Respect is a two-way street. I will provide John Beatty a copy of the full 12 minutes of video, because he was good enough to send me bars to bend and he's a darn nice guy to boot! I'll also send him the exact wraps I used for this first part of the bend, and the bar, and he can then visualize what kind of pain and damage I've done to myself (John was nice enough to say he would send me back the bar, I appreciate it).

BTW, if Dave thinks I'm a clown....hey I'll either take that as a compliment or constructive criticism from a serious athlete. Heck, Dave's a freakin clown!

Thanks for the reply Pat.

Although i have one question. on a short bar like 4.5" or 5", for me anyway, i have my hands on the end like i normally bend and my knuckles are about 1.5" apart, what is your hand placement like on longer bars? 6" or 7"???

Thanks

[Tom of Iowa2]

You guys crtic each other all you want.Nothing wrong with that....Long time ago on this forum I decided everyone is wrong AND everyone is right.Everyone chooses their own style and/or "thing"and gets good at it.

I don't bend ...but Myself and a few others have levered "a heavy sledge hammer or two"......so what weight has all this close handed,wrist strengthening steel bar bending lead to on arm parallel to the ground HEAVY sledge to nose and back.

If this is a wrist strengthening exercise a pic of that would be cool.I would expect some big numbers....if there is a correlation.

Sledge and wrist roller indicate wrist strength to me....but if steel bar bending works..I'd like to know.

[Oldtime]

When the hands are fully off the bar and perpendicular to it in what has been termed a "pistol grip" the poundage is at it's lowest level and wrist involvement is virtually nil.

Kinda like in your 5.5 FBBC bend, Right?

I know I am very heavily scrutinized (Greg admits to looking at 25-30 pictures of mine) and I supposedly do just what Dave is criticizing. Well that's enlightening, even though most pictures people talk about are at the end of very taxing feats and shows

Was your 5.5 FBBC bent after a show also, Then?

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505]http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505

Edited January 11, 2006 by Oldtime

[terminator]

At what point are my knuckles on the bottom side of the bar.....not the knuckle on the palm, the first knuckle on the finger any wider than maybe 1" on this bend? They act as the fulcrum, in case you were unaware. BTW, who are you, and that is not a snotty remark, I'm just curious

When the hands are fully off the bar and perpendicular to it in what has been termed a "pistol grip" the poundage is at it's lowest level and wrist involvement is virtually nil.

Kinda like in your 5.5 FBBC bend, Right?

I know I am very heavily scrutinized (Greg admits to looking at 25-30 pictures of mine) and I supposedly do just what Dave is criticizing. Well that's enlightening, even though most pictures people talk about are at the end of very taxing feats and shows

Was your 5.5 FBBC bent after a show also, Then?

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505]http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505

[gamidon]

Since Greg and others have brought my name into this, here's my reply. I know I am very heavily scrutinized (Greg admits to looking at 25-30 pictures of mine) and I supposedly do just what Dave is criticizing. Well that's enlightening, even though most pictures people talk about are at the end of very taxing feats and shows and combined with all manner of weights hanging from my head or in my lap I still see about 1.5" max between my first knuckles...and sure the thumbs open up a bit to get a little more favorable wrist alignment but the fulcrum stays with the lower fingers. If people can look at these pictures and say I'm doing the same thing as the other DO practitioners (with the exception of Dave Morton who uses perfect style whenever I've seen him) then I say some optometrist appointments are necessary. I would compare styles with Greg, but there are no pictures of him bending anywhere......please don't offer scrutiny you are unwilling to have directed upon yourself, and don't bitch when people correctly indicate that there are differences in difficulty about different decks of cards either. You have said to provide video that demonstrates this clean style, check my 5.5 and 5" FBBC videos as they are good examples and compare them to yours...wait, where are yours?

I'm gonna allow Bill to run the first part of my 4.5" FBBC bend until the point where I fall over because I have promised that and I think folks will get a kick out of it but I don't want him to post the whole 12 minutes for everyone to scrutinize my hairstyle or whatever..... Respect is a two-way street. I will provide John Beatty a copy of the full 12 minutes of video, because he was good enough to send me bars to bend and he's a darn nice guy to boot! I'll also send him the exact wraps I used for this first part of the bend, and the bar, and he can then visualize what kind of pain and damage I've done to myself (John was nice enough to say he would send me back the bar, I appreciate it).

Measuring how close your hands are together is meaningless at the index fingers. All someone has to do to improve that measurement is point the finger out. The place your index finger is on the bar does not change the difficulty of the bend. I see no drop off in bending by putting my index out in front. In fact I bend that way to spread the load onto my middle finger so that my index and middle finger can share in the "fun". Just because my hand position is very similar to yours does not mean I agree with you that this particular hand position makes the bend harder.

If you have your hands together on a bar your thumb pad webbing of one hand is touching the webbing of the other hand. You can measure this distance and see how close someone’s hands are based on this gap and there is nothing anyone can do to modify this distance other than to move their hands in. Anyone with a long finger will measure closer together if you measured from the fingers.

As for my bending style, if you seen Dave you seen me. We spent a lot of time perfecting how we bend together. Plenty of people have watched me bend and can comment if they like. We bend that way NOT because it is harder, hell Dave Morton will spend an hour trying to figure out the easiest way to eat and ice-cream bar.... We bend that way because it is MORE effective. You cannot "pistol" grip a short bar your hands will touch before the bar is bent. Pistol gripping IS off the bar and NOBODY is talking about that being the correct way to bend. Those individuals that bend off the ends of the bar are not "clowns" they just are doing it the way they think they should. Constructive comments about individual safety and improved performance on short bars would do a lot more to getting them to work to get more fingers on the bars much sooner than insulting them.

Arguing about distance of the hands on the bars is silly. Telling people to get AT LEAST two fingers on the bar makes sense to me from a safety standpoint and because it is much more effective way to bend. Look at KTA, is says to put his pinky half on half off the gripper to get maximum leverage. This WHOLE bending argument can be carried over to grippers. I will start putting my whole pinky on the gripper and claim that EVERYONE else is a "clown". That hanging over the edge is cheating. That hanging over the edge is easier. Funny part is that hanging over the edge DOES make it easier, put your hands up flush with the top of a gripper and it is much harder to close. BUT WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT??? A good progressive training aid? Possibly. But a reason to insult people and call them clowns who put their pinky half on? I think not. Should we discount a gripper close because they used the entire handle and then some? The whole argument just doesn’t make any sense to me. It could be carried over to ANY event. Pinch is harder with no chalk, does the fact it is harder without chalk negate peoples lifts who used chalk?

I have a ton of respect for you and how you bend. I have never said a derogatory thing about how you bend. I just do not agree with you that there is any substantial difference between how you bend and how most others bend. I don't care how anyone bends a 5.5" FBBC it is going to be a brutal test of strength no matter what. On the other board Dave L mentioned that he did not respect people who don't bend "his" way. I do respect those that bend a bar like a 6" FBBC, I do respect the hard work it takes people to bend a red and certify on the IM list. I am not the one being derogatory, I honestly just do not see a difference. I looked at the two videos you mentioned above just now and I still do not see it. I cannot imagine how anyone could bend either bar with hands any further apart than yours. I cannot see how your wrap is any smaller the diameter appears to be around 1". I am not saying anything is wrong with your bends, I actually think they are great. I just don’t see the difference you think is there. I will say this and you can ask the people who watched me bend the 5" FBBC, my index fingers were NOT touching, they were OVERLAPPING. I could not figure out how to get them out of the way so I crossed them over each other. So now that I think about it my hands were closer than yours. Do you honestly think I feel that it makes a difference, hell no it doesn’t. Not one bit. Your bend was great you are right to be proud of it.

As for videos I have not posted any videos this is true, I very seldom will post a picture. My family picture has my son who is 5 months old in it, he is 17 now. I am admittedly camera shy, it is pathetic and I know it. It has nothing to do with bending. When I certified on the red nail I asked if I could skip the bio and picture thing because I was to afraid to take and send in a picture. Insult me all you have to, it is who I am. I try to help people where I can and I never try to take the limelight. I have NEVER spoken to randy, never shared with him the things he put on his site. I never post about my best bends, in fact look at my signature, I never even asked to have it changed as I certified on bars at FBBC. If you are truly interested in seeing me bend I would be glad to have you on webcams with us. I try to hide as much as possible on cam I know for a fact we would get along and our email conversations are nothing but polite. I am very sorry you took my post as an attack it was not the intent. I just don’t agree with the basic premises you guys are making. I don’t agree your hands are closer in any substantial way. I don’t think pointing your finger forward changes the difficulty of the bend. Anyone here who bends can try it.

As for cards, please reread my post it is here: Cards I didn't say there was no different difficulties in cards, what I said was: "First of all Bicycles are tougher no doubt, but it is like telling a guy bench pressing his first day he has to use 900 pounds or he is nothing. Bicycles cost 4-6 bucks a pack. You gotta have plenty of money to train with them." I went on to tell him how to start off with easier decks and move up. I cannot see having a problem with that. I certainly was not disagreeing with integrity, I misspoke when I said I disagreed with everything he wrote. The gentleman was asking how to tear cards, and he got "Get yourself some Bicycle cards if you want to be a legitimate card tearer" This seems pretty extreeme. I am surprised you took exception to my post as I think I sounded more reasonable.

Respectfully,

Greg

P.S. if you read this post and think I was being negative in anyway you read it incorrectly. I am being very honest about something that continues to come up Over and Over. I am not the one who always brings it up. This has never been resolved, I do not think anything I said here will resolve it. I have great respect for Pat and I am not undermining anything he has done.

[Oldtime]

At what point are my knuckles on the bottom side of the bar.....not the knuckle on the palm, the first knuckle on the finger any wider than maybe 1" on this bend? They act as the fulcrum, in case you were unaware. BTW, who are you, and that is not a snotty remark, I'm just curious

When the hands are fully off the bar and perpendicular to it in what has been termed a "pistol grip" the poundage is at it's lowest level and wrist involvement is virtually nil.

Kinda like in your 5.5 FBBC bend, Right?

I know I am very heavily scrutinized (Greg admits to looking at 25-30 pictures of mine) and I supposedly do just what Dave is criticizing. Well that's enlightening, even though most pictures people talk about are at the end of very taxing feats and shows

Was your 5.5 FBBC bent after a show also, Then?

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505]http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505

I dont think anyone could get there knuckles "under" a bar when bending it..

[gamidon]

When the hands are fully off the bar and perpendicular to it in what has been termed a "pistol grip" the poundage is at it's lowest level and wrist involvement is virtually nil.

Kinda like in your 5.5 FBBC bend, Right?

I know I am very heavily scrutinized (Greg admits to looking at 25-30 pictures of mine) and I supposedly do just what Dave is criticizing. Well that's enlightening, even though most pictures people talk about are at the end of very taxing feats and shows

Was your 5.5 FBBC bent after a show also, Then?

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505]http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505

Oldtime please dont get this thread locked, some of this needs to be aired out. The term pistol gripping was coined by Clay I believe. It refers to having the bar completely out of your hand. Pat is certainly not doing that in that video. That video is a great bend, please to not dismiss it so easily.

Greg

[Oldtime]

When the hands are fully off the bar and perpendicular to it in what has been termed a "pistol grip" the poundage is at it's lowest level and wrist involvement is virtually nil.

Kinda like in your 5.5 FBBC bend, Right?

I know I am very heavily scrutinized (Greg admits to looking at 25-30 pictures of mine) and I supposedly do just what Dave is criticizing. Well that's enlightening, even though most pictures people talk about are at the end of very taxing feats and shows

Was your 5.5 FBBC bent after a show also, Then?

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505]http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1505

Oldtime please dont get this thread locked, some of this needs to be aired out. The term pistol gripping was coined by Clay I believe. It refers to having the bar completely out of your hand. Pat is certainly not doing that in that video. That video is a great bend, please to not dismiss it so easily.

Greg

Who said anything about "dismissing" it. That is exactly how i bend..

Just like your saying, He says there is a hughe diffrence in how he bends, But i just dont see it.

[kerbjr]

Im thinking that if you want to get the most out of DO bending then drop your hands to your waist and hit it slim style. I doubt anyone has changed their style to DO to get the most out of a bend, I am guessing that they switched like me because they found it advantageous and probably wanted to get on THE LIST. Nothing wrong with that it was/is within the rules.... I have personally switched from pistol grip to closer to what Pat is doing (on the GB vids) because I have found more power this way. In fact on my first cert attempt at a Red I failed because I was using a pistol grip and had to change styles to get it on my 2nd attempt.... And I guess I am going to have to schedule an appointment with the eye DOC, cause only difference I really see is slightly deeper nail placement and stretching out the index fingers. Basic principal behind the bends is the same....I would have to agree that the padding thing gets a little carried away, myself included on some of the bigger bends....Dave is right though about the wrist thing, DO doesnt stress my wrist much at all, stresses the fingers mostly. ..........Brett

[Oldtime]

Regaurdless,

I respect anyone that bends a 4.5 FBBC, In Any fashion, In any amount of time. But i Really dont see where this is going....

Nor do i see why it really matters. Let people bend how they are most comfterble with... Dont' like it? Don't matter, You dont have to. If you want to bend A certain way, Thats great, Even if the diffrence isnt big in how others are doing it.

Stop picking at the details, Have fun and bend how you want to.

[gazza]

Does anyone bend DO without putting the nail/bolt/bar ends against there thumb pads,with this technique i find i have 2 fingers of each hand solidly on the end of a 7"bar as i move my hands in the bar/bolt then ends up under my thumbs not against there,i feel this way to be a very unatural position and completely changes my body mechanics/leverage and i know i would not be able to bend half as much this way even if i used thicker wraps. I am farely new to this technique so i am still refining it.

I also agree with the purity of the sport a certain wrap thickness etc and obviously if bending for comps then also bend DU and Reverse style as this is what most comps will use,same with certs abide by the rules other than that please leave us clowns to bend the steel how we enjoy it.

with me its all about enjoying my hobbie whilst keeping the injuries at bay and to some extent the pain and as my technique gets better my wraps get thinner and my pain tolerance goes higher i hope to go from being a clown bender to hopefully a reasonable bar bender without being made to feel like my accomplishments(PRS)are worthless.

Why not the top people just get together and show a row of bars eg:-4.5",5",5.5",6",6.5"and 7" say and show clearly what thickness of wrapping in leather cordury and ironmind pads etc we can and cannot use also the exact hand positions that are exceptable on each length of bar with the appropriote wrapping/material and the techniques for DO,DU and reverse that are also exceptable with the above then here on this board we all have something to aim at that we all know has the approval of are peers it would also stop the bickering

[Dave Lemanczyk]

I appreciate the kind sentiment Pat. You should all know that I fully respect Mr. P. and have nothing but complete admiration for him. Ladies and gentlemen...The Terminator!

For anyone questioning what "hands together" means; when I say "hands together" it means "hands together". I can certainly respect an inch or even at most two inches by other irong game men. I respect this because I know their hands are on the steel fully! Wrist torsion strength...

I personally have my hands together fully when I bend. since I can't upload a picture onto this thread I will upload a picture of me bending steel in my gallery. Where are my hands in the picture?

[Bob Lipinski]

Pat is the best. That is very respectable.

I just think the energy spent complaining about how others bend would be better spent perfecting form and kicking ass even more.

Bending will always be largely a test of upper body strength, as the crushdown is never done with the wrists alone.

Form is always suited to strengths. If upper body strength is defecient, maybe you will use more wrist. If wrist strength is a relative weakness, push like hell with your upper body.

Forget how far Pat's fingers are apart. Look at the angle of pat's hands when he starts to bend. His hands are just about perpendicular to the bar. and his pinkies almost touch when the bar is bent 45 degrees or less.

Pat, again you are the best. I just think you are doing the exact same thing you are complaining about others doing.

[Anuwbius]

Heres my 2 cents. IMO the reason DO allows for stronger steel to be bent is because one can push into the ends of the bar. Regardless of how far ones fingers are from each other (compare my bending videos to Pats if one likes) either way the hand position is that of getting the kuckles of the palm parallel to each other and perpendicualr to the bar, which allows for pushing into the ends. Whatever minute differences finger placement make are just that, minute, considering that most of the force used to bend the nail is coming from pushing into the ends of the bars. Try bending a nail (DO) only using your wrists, whatever hand position you like. I bet it wont go anywhere. Take that some wrist involvement and push into the ends of the bar and bam, its melted.

I guess my point is that its the pushing into the ends of the bar that make DO so much more advantageus then other styles. As long as one is doing this, then I dont see how finger placement makes enough of a difference to cause all this fuss. Bottom line is, fingers close or not, its that compression of the nail that gets it moving with high DO. Now that I have repeated myself several times, I feel any bend done in this manner (the whole pushign thing) is availabel to be compared to another bend of similar fashion, regardless of finger placement.

Just want to say that this is only my opinion, and that I respect anyone who bends anything, as it is more then most are willing to do. I have the utmost admiration for those bending big steel regardless of how its done and view them only as equals who have the will to push themselves harder and farther then I have done.