Saw This On A Different Board

[Mikael Siversson]

It seems David is correct in assuming that the DO folding technique does not build forearm strength to quite the same degree as the reverse or DU style.

We can for example look at the winner of the 2005 GGC, Jedd. As far as I know he is not a DO bender.

The other top competitions of the year, the 2005 Europeans and the CC competition tell the same story.

The winner of the Champion of champions competition, David Horne is not a DO bender.

Second place Nick McKinless is not a DO bender.

Third place big Steve is not a DO bender.

Fourth place Mobster is not a DO bender.

Winner of the 2005 Europeans, the Swizz has done most of his bends using techniques other than DO I believe.

Same with second place Viktor Sander and third place Johan Albrektsson.

In summory, non-DO benders totally dominated the top level allround grip competitions in 2005.

The DO is certainly the best style for bending hard steel but it uses more of general upper body strength whereas the reverse and DU put a higher level of stress on the hands and wrists.

If you want to bend the toughest nail possible you are more likely to succeed with the DO style. If you want the strongest hands and wrists you are likely to get better results with the reverse or DU style, based on the results of the main grip comps in 2005.

[Mikael Siversson]

Or maybe he did not discuss any of the other styles.

[danegarreau]

If you want to bend the toughest nail possible you are more likely to succeed with the DO style. If you want the strongest hands and wrists you are likely to get better results with the reverse or DU style, based on the results of the main grip comps in 2005.

I think this is what people need to understand.

Here is an analogy;

Lets take bench pressing for example

If you want to develop strong triceps I think everyone will agree that doing bench press with a close grip will acomplish the task better than using a wide grip. But if you want to lift the most weight, you should probably use any style that allows you do this, for most it is a wide grip.

It is the same with bending nails. If you want to develop you wrist to the fullest degree, use a DU or reverse style, but if you actually want to become proficent at bending steel, use a DO style.

[climber511]

This leads into another question - does DO, or any bending style - really belong in a pure grip strength contest? There have already been attempts to address this in a few contests. When you call something a "grip" contest, shouldn't grip strength, be it hands, wrists, or forearm strength be the limiting factor? There are other events that may not meet that limitation as well, an example being the one hand lift - some may run out of body strength before grip strength. Just a thought - it's been discussed in chat several times before, thought I'd just bring it out in the open.

[EricMilfeld]

This leads into another question - does DO, or any bending style - really belong in a pure grip strength contest? There have already been attempts to address this in a few contests. When you call something a "grip" contest, shouldn't grip strength, be it hands, wrists, or forearm strength be the limiting factor? There are other events that may not meet that limitation as well, an example being the one hand lift - some may run out of body strength before grip strength. Just a thought - it's been discussed in chat several times before, thought I'd just bring it out in the open.

This is a fair question, Chris. But there's a lot to consider in answering it. For example, depending upon which particular piece of steel is being bent, grip may be the limiting factor, regardless of technique employed. I've bent many a bar, mostly very short, but also long 5/16" grd 5s, that gave me the most difficulty with the final crush movement, which involves gripping the bar like gripper and crushing it as such. Also, even with the most proficient DO technique, and superior upper body strength, a strong tight grip is imperative at most all phases of the bend, during some phases more than others. But yes, on some bends, for some people, grip or wrist strength will not be the limiting factor.

[Dude]

This leads into another question - does DO, or any bending style - really belong in a pure grip strength contest? There have already been attempts to address this in a few contests. When you call something a "grip" contest, shouldn't grip strength, be it hands, wrists, or forearm strength be the limiting factor? There are other events that may not meet that limitation as well, an example being the one hand lift - some may run out of body strength before grip strength. Just a thought - it's been discussed in chat several times before, thought I'd just bring it out in the open.

I think that bending is like grip events in respects to incorporating a lot of other body parts. For example I would say vbar lift is to grippers as bending is to levering. The first of each require additional overall strength whereas the second are much more specialized to certain muscles. Usually the overall body strength that is needed is far greater than whats needed for something like a vbar lift is already there but nonetheless requires additional resources. IMO if a contest were to be based upon "strict" grip strength if would be things like grippers, levering, and stuff that is very specialized in what it takes to do it. Good question.

[climber511]

This has been kicked around a few times in regard to events besides bending so please don't anyone feel I'm picking on any particular event. Are medley events done for time in which no single part causes failure a grip or speed and coordination test? I'd hate to see every contest come to have the same exact events or the same people would always win; and I'm sure no one wants that (well maybe the ones good at those exact events). I think in a sport as new as ours, that discussions of this type will lead to better contests that are fair to all and still are true tests of Grip, Wrist, and Forearm strength.

I'm sorry for hijacking this thread - if you like I'd be glad to move it to a seperate post for more discussion.

Edited January 9, 2006 by climber511

[Mikael Siversson]

I'd hate to see every contest come to have the same exact events or the same people would always win; and I'm sure no one wants that (well maybe the ones good at those exact events).

Over the last year or so it has become increasingly more popular to include standardized event allowing direct comparison between the USA and Europe. This has been possible through the selection of a limited number of events. If you can't do well on an adjustable Euro pinch set up for example, at any width, then you are simply not very good at pinching in my oppinion. Should we as organizers go out of our way to find obscure events in an attempt to dethrone a champion?

Not me. If I can't beat somone in a contest including grippers, two hand pinch, v-bar, a one hand deadlift of some sort and bending or levering, then I am simply not strong enough and I would have to try to get stronger.

[joeyg]

I thought bending was about bending steel...not building strong wrists, forearms etc.

When I bend, my goal is take something that was once straight, and make a U out of it.

If i wanted to work on my wrists or forearms, i would do exercises related to that.

Here is a link to the thread that my original post came from. http://www.irontrybe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37940

Edited January 9, 2006 by joeyg

[climber511]

Mikael As I'm sure you are aware, I'm new to the competition scene in grip strength but I enter chat frequently and this subject has been brought up by people very involved in and interested in promoting the sport. I try at least to keep an open mind on all areas of it. Do you feel that the medly type events done for time are a "stength" test or a speed and coordination test with an endurance component? I'm not saying this is a bad thing as the medley was perhaps my favorite event at GGC - my question is - is it a pure grip strength event? Perhaps an increasing weight until failure over the several lifts done within a set time limit might be better. I don't expect promoters to find obscure events but the discussion of a list with the pluses and minuses of events might make for good conversation at least and aid in the development of the sport. It was a similiar discussion last year that led to some of the standards we use now. AS for simpley getting stronger, I agree, I'm trying.

[Dave Lemanczyk]

It seems David is correct in assuming that the DO folding technique does not build forearm strength to quite the same degree as the reverse or DU style.

We can for example look at the winner of the 2005 GGC, Jedd. As far as I know he is not a DO bender.

The other top competitions of the year, the 2005 Europeans and the CC competition tell the same story.

The winner of the Champion of champions competition, David Horne is not a DO bender.

Second place Nick McKinless is not a DO bender.

Third place big Steve is not a DO bender.

Fourth place Mobster is not a DO bender.

Winner of the 2005 Europeans, the Swizz has done most of his bends using techniques other than DO I believe.

Same with second place Viktor Sander and third place Johan Albrektsson.

In summory, non-DO benders totally dominated the top level allround grip competitions in 2005.

The DO is certainly the best style for bending hard steel but it uses more of general upper body strength whereas the reverse and DU put a higher level of stress on the hands and wrists.

If you want to bend the toughest nail possible you are more likely to succeed with the DO style. If you want the strongest hands and wrists you are likely to get better results with the reverse or DU style, based on the results of the main grip comps in 2005.

We are on the same exact page.

[joeyg]

It seems David is correct in assuming that the DO folding technique does not build forearm strength to quite the same degree as the reverse or DU style.

We can for example look at the winner of the 2005 GGC, Jedd. As far as I know he is not a DO bender.

The other top competitions of the year, the 2005 Europeans and the CC competition tell the same story.

The winner of the Champion of champions competition, David Horne is not a DO bender.

Second place Nick McKinless is not a DO bender.

Third place big Steve is not a DO bender.

Fourth place Mobster is not a DO bender.

Winner of the 2005 Europeans, the Swizz has done most of his bends using techniques other than DO I believe.

Same with second place Viktor Sander and third place Johan Albrektsson.

In summory, non-DO benders totally dominated the top level allround grip competitions in 2005.

The DO is certainly the best style for bending hard steel but it uses more of general upper body strength whereas the reverse and DU put a higher level of stress on the hands and wrists.

If you want to bend the toughest nail possible you are more likely to succeed with the DO style. If you want the strongest hands and wrists you are likely to get better results with the reverse or DU style, based on the results of the main grip comps in 2005.

We are on the same exact page.

it would seem that the vast majority of people involved in hand strength do not compete. I can't speak for all, but I personally enjoy bending because it is fun to bend steel. I train my wrists and grip strength using other techniques, but i get my bigger bends out of using a method that does nothing for my grip or wrist.

[Dude]

We are on the same exact page.

Ok well by the IronT thread and the posts above it wasn't remotely close to coming across like that. Kinda came across like bending DO is some undeserved accomplishment / hoax.

[Oldtime]

We are on the same exact page.

Ok well by the IronT thread and the posts above it wasn't remotely close to coming across like that. Kinda came across like bending DO is some undeserved accomplishment / hoax.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Mikael Siversson]

Mikael As I'm sure you are aware, I'm new to the competition scene in grip strength but I enter chat frequently and this subject has been brought up by people very involved in and interested in promoting the sport. I try at least to keep an open mind on all areas of it. Do you feel that the medly type events done for time are a "stength" test or a speed and coordination test with an endurance component?

A medley event is likely to favour competing organizers somewhat more than non-medley events. I would not include them myself in a competition but I can understand that others might find them fun and challenging.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing as the medley was perhaps my favorite event at GGC - my question is - is it a pure grip strength event? Perhaps an increasing weight until failure over the several lifts done within a set time limit might be better. I don't expect promoters to find obscure events but the discussion of a list with the pluses and minuses of events might make for good conversation at least and aid in the development of the sport. It was a similiar discussion last year that led to some of the standards we use now. AS for simpley getting stronger, I agree, I'm trying.

[gazza]

Most of the people on that list build a whole heap of wrist strength before bending became popular on this board,yes most of them do use DU or Terminator style of bending but they built there wrists well before there bending strength.

David Horne 15-20 years of grip possibly the strongest wrists in a grip comp.

Steve Gardener thick bar daddy and Weaver stick king over 5 years of competing before he took up bending.

Big Steve has bent all 3 ways and trained full body and other things before grip so again has built a good wrist and body foundation before bending.

Nick Mckinless again alot of years competing and building his body before bending was popular on this board.

David the Swiss is probably the only person youy can use on that list for a good case as he is relatively new to comps and bending.

Also being called a clown wether you are a beginner or not is uncalled for not everyone has the privalige to train with Pat Steve Weiner and others and learn the finer pionts of bending eg:-wrapping and technique etc.

Some of the newbies dont or cannot even afford weights or a gym membership and see bending as relatively cheap only needing nails and wraps and away they go and because they dont know any better yet to be referred to as a clown is insulting.

dave reading through some of your posts you are obviously a very strong man and very knowledgeable and passionate about the sport but i think you need to get a little respect when referring to people as clowns.

[joeyg]

Most of the people on that list build a whole heap of wrist strength before bending became popular on this board,yes most of them do use DU or Terminator style of bending but they built there wrists well before there bending strength.

David Horne 15-20 years of grip possibly the strongest wrists in a grip comp.

Steve Gardener thick bar daddy and Weaver stick king over 5 years of competing before he took up bending.

Big Steve has bent all 3 ways and trained full body and other things before grip so again has built a good wrist and body foundation before bending.

Nick Mckinless again alot of years competing and building his body before bending was popular on this board.

David the Swiss is probably the only person youy can use on that list for a good case as he is relatively new to comps and bending.

Also being called a clown wether you are a beginner or not is uncalled for not everyone has the privalige to train with Pat Steve Weiner and others and learn the finer pionts of bending eg:-wrapping and technique etc.

Some of the newbies dont or cannot even afford weights or a gym membership and see bending as relatively cheap only needing nails and wraps and away they go and because they dont know any better yet to be referred to as a clown is insulting.

dave reading through some of your posts you are obviously a very strong man and very knowledgeable and passionate about the sport but i think you need to get a little respect when referring to people as clowns.

I wonder if dave refers to pat and steve as clowns as well since there are pictures floating around of both of those gentlemen bending with the same technique he is outspoken against.

[Oldtime]

By the way, For anyon saying DO bending, Doesnt build wrist strength:

Before i started bending, I couldn't lever an 8 lb sledge at the end of the handle. I didnt even train hammers, And now i can lever a 12 lb, at the end of the handle, to parelell with the floor.

Some food for thought.

[smp76]

Dave,

I, like Ron would still like to know what you consider "excessive cloth". It should be easy to point out. You obviously have an idea so just say it. is 1" when wrapped around a Red too much? 3/4" wrapped around a Red acceptable? Please, your lack of specifics seems to elude to your uncertainty. I am curious. I am still a student and by no means an authority of bending so I am always looking for guidance. You offered.

-Sean

[Mikael Siversson]

By the way, For anyon saying DO bending, Doesnt build wrist strength:

I don't think anyone said that DO does not build wrist strength in this thread. To say that reverse or DU is better for developing wrist and hand strength is not the same thing as suggesting that DO does not build any strength in the wrists or hands.

[Mikael Siversson]

Dave,

I, like Ron would still like to know what you consider "excessive cloth". It should be easy to point out. You obviously have an idea so just say it. is 1" when wrapped around a Red too much? 3/4" wrapped around a Red acceptable? Please, your lack of specifics seems to elude to your uncertainty. I am curious. I am still a student and by no means an authority of bending so I am always looking for guidance. You offered.

-Sean

People use whatever wrapping they feel comfortable with. Some of us like to use rather minimal wrapping (you should see what I use) as it makes the hands thougher in general (if they survive the punishment) but at the same time reduces the likelyhood of injury in shoulders, pectoral muscles etc. as you have to go for slightly weaker steal.

[jad]

WHY WOULD I PLACE MY HANDS FAR APART AND USE EXCESS CLOTH

?

to bend bigger steel, reach thier full potential, not make something harder than it needs to be, etc..

I do like Heath's comparison of the 2HP. My response would be the rules limit the distance of the hands on the 2HP to no more than 3" apart if I remember right whereas there is no limit on distance the hands can be apart on the bending. If there wasn't a limit, then it would be foolish to keep your hands closer together, at least in regards to competition. Why hamstring yourself at the start and make something harder than it has to be? If others choose not to take advantage of the best technique, then that's on them.

The whole hands close together thing can easily be manipulated, unless you're actually measuring the distance between the first knuckle (the one you punch with). I'd like to know what's considered excess padding as well. Pat, Gamidon, Dave, Big Steve, and Clay all bend with leather/suede.

[Oldtime]

I do agree that bending with your hands, Practicly off the bar, is pretty dumb, but, "hands together" is just plain out stupid. Even though no-one knows what "hands together" is because no-one will speak up about it.

[smp76]

Dave,

I, like Ron would still like to know what you consider "excessive cloth". It should be easy to point out. You obviously have an idea so just say it. is 1" when wrapped around a Red too much? 3/4" wrapped around a Red acceptable? Please, your lack of specifics seems to elude to your uncertainty. I am curious. I am still a student and by no means an authority of bending so I am always looking for guidance. You offered.

-Sean

People use whatever wrapping they feel comfortable with. Some of us like to use rather minimal wrapping (you should see what I use) as it makes the hands thougher in general (if they survive the punishment) but at the same time reduces the likelyhood of injury in shoulders, pectoral muscles etc. as you have to go for slightly weaker steal.

Mikael,

It seems that the idea of people bending with what ever they feel comfortable has ruffled a few feathers so I am trying to ascertain what Dave believes is "excessive". I have bent with minimal leather 4"X4" and what some considered excessive. What I believe Dave is trying to say (and Dave correct me if you think I misinterpret) that there is a level of too much leather. To this point I do agree have have cut my pads down from 1.5" when wrapped around a Red to 1" and no wider than 4.25". This as stated before by Amidon was not a hard and fast rule and I agree with his suggestions. But if Dave is to go so far as to state and use a term as loose as excessive then I am just asking for some clarification.

As for the meat of his article I would say that tendon density and wrist strength is critical to making bends a benefit to forearm and hand strength in general but when you say "clowns" are bendning with excessive padding it begs a few questions. Perhaps excessive cloth or padding was refering to big red shoes and a ruffed collar but until it is spelled out for us less educated folks I will just assume that bending like a clown is only done in the middle of three rings and only after you follow eight of your closest friends out of a yugo and you honk your nose to signal the start of your bend.

Respectfully but at times in jest,

Sean.

[Dude]

By the way, For anyon saying DO bending, Doesnt build wrist strength:

I don't think anyone said that DO does not build wrist strength in this thread. To say that reverse or DU is better for developing wrist and hand strength is not the same thing as suggesting that DO does not build any strength in the wrists or hands.

By saying that most who can bend bigger bars with hands on the end of the bar method (aka DO) and cannot lever a certain poundage sledge, by process of deductive logic, is saying that DO does not yield strength results.

Also IMO bending pad thickness is a crock because anyone bending with 1.25" diameter pads has the same balls/ determination/ ability to put themselves through bending the same piece of steel with 3/4" pads, it just comes down to preference. I know I'm throwing a big what if out there but I would stake a gentlemens bet that most on GB could trim their pads down to "objectionable" length from critics and achieve the same results.

If think what has me most opposed to Dave's comments is what also agitates others alike. What I've accomplished thus far bending was difficult to me, and I worked my ass to get there, much like all the other benders here. To have someone come along and knock that by saying that the methods/technique used is falsified because its far more efficient than other methods is garbage. His posts have created the illusion that bending DO is a cheap and effective way to cheat the bending progression ranks. I would expect no less of a reaction if I posted in the gripping section saying that anyone with hands over 8" on an RT lift is using more mechanical advantage because of leverage than strength and should adjust accordingly to yeild strength gains, much like above mentioned comments that DO is a cheat to true bending methods. To reiterate, yes bending DU is more difficult than bending DO. Is there a strength gain to bending both styles? Yes.

As I've seen in other posts of Dave's he does put things blunt, which is my personal preference. However, I do not critique things which I cannot accomplish myself. I cannot DU a red YET (I have not tried) so I do not critique. I can't close a #4 or many of the between grippers between #3 and #4 so I do not critique on closes and such. In summary I do not write checks I cannot cash, and by Dave making statements like his posts he's done just that. If Dave can bend a 6" FBBC (which is my PR), or even a red for that matter, with his hands together in what I can gather from his posts then I would be glad to be proven wrong.

All in all I would like for Dave to elaborate on what he means in his own words, not the quotes of another as I would like to try and accomplish/ duplicate it myself to see where I stack up.